Divided fiddles

[ostuni]

EA, I'd absolutely agree about the effects being more noticeable in recordings - but why, then, should this just be of interest to musicologists? I'm sure I'm in the majority here in listening to most of my music via recordings rather than at concerts, so it's certainly something that I, as a listener, get excited about.

Both my previous two evenings were, however, spent at orchestral concerts. And my impression, from right up in the Rausing Circle for both, was that there was no significant difference between the effect of Oramo's divided fiddles for Mahler, and Rattle's grouped fiddles for Schoenberg. But when I get round to listening to both on the iplayer, I'm sure that the differences will be apparent.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

EA, I'd absolutely agree about the effects being more noticeable in recordings - but why, then, should this just be of interest to musicologists? I'm sure I'm in the majority here in listening to most of my music via recordings rather than at concerts, so it's certainly something that I, as a listener, get excited about.

Both my previous two evenings were, however, spent at orchestral concerts. And my impression, from right up in the Rausing Circle for both, was that there was no significant difference between the effect of Oramo's divided fiddles for Mahler, and Rattle's grouped fiddles for Schoenberg. But when I get round to listening to both on the iplayer, I'm sure that the differences will be apparent.

I suppose I mean that recordings are to some extent manipulated. In the early days of stereo, there were demonstration recordings that liked to exaggerate the left-right effect, though the fun and games soon died down. Much of the music we listen to was composed for live performance, so the effects/benefits/drawbacks in this debate are largely to do with our current lifestyles.

Simon Rattle conducts from the podium, so he can hear the effect of divided violins very clearly. In the middle of the concert hall, his audience is unlikely to be so impressed.

[johnb]

That's interesting, because I've always felt the reverse to be true. The stereo separation is clearer in recordings, so the effect is more noticeable. In most concert halls, you have to be very near the front to be aware of any real difference. It's just something that musicologists like to get excited about.

On the rare occasions I have been to a concert where the fiddles have been divided it hasn't been that there was no effect but the effect was somewhat reduced because the second violins seemed significantly quieter than the firsts, presumably because of the way they are held inevitably projects the sound more towards the orchestra than the audience.

This seems to go along with Boult's comments, quoted by Alain Maréchal: http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...773#post628773

Boult wrote* that when seated on the right of the conductor the seconds should be made to sit upright and to ensure their instruments do not face inward towards the orchestra, so that their sound reaches the audience clearly (and simultaneously with the firsts).

and Pabmusic: http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...803#post628803

He also wrote (and said) that there should be at least one desk more of 2nds than 1sts. For balance.

Perhaps using divided strings needs certain approaches and "techniques" that conductors and orchestras are unpractised in these days (or is that a silly thought).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In most concert halls, you have to be very near the front to be aware of any real difference.

So those lucky members of the audience are aware of the difference - and in some Concert Halls, more of the audience experience this difference? (Whereas, when the violins are all on the same side, absolutely nobody hears the benefits of separating the violins - is this something to be approved of; some sort of misguided egalitarianism?)

It's just something that musicologists like to get excited about.

"Just"? Boult and Rattle (and Mathias) are just "Musicologists"?

[jayne lee wilson]

The locus classics for divided violins in the stereo era would be Otto Klemperer of course, who insisted on this arrangement for his Philharmonia recordings. They certainly make a dramatic effect in the "fencing fiddles" of say, the finale of Beethoven's 7th or the 1st movement of Mozart's 25th, and they intensify both drama and argument on the Brahms cycle too. Not sure if they're on every Philharmonia taping (it would take quite a long time to check them all ) but IIRC it's true of all the Bruckner (wonderfully telling in his classic 6th) and Mahler recordings as well.

Whether he always had this arrangement in earlier RIAS, Cologne, Hamburg or Amsterdam live recordings isn't so easy to tell as most are in mono......... but if anyone knows... all ears.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

"Just"? Boult and Rattle (and Mathias) are just "Musicologists"?

Mathias?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm not disputing the rationale behind divided violins. I just think the benefits in live performance is limited in many concert venues. Mark Elder divides the violins in the Bridgewater Hall, but the bathroom acoustic there seems to cancel it out any perceived benefits.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Mathias?

Broucek - the onlie begetter of the Thread (with whose assessment of the wonderful Krivine set I totally agree).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm not disputing the rationale behind divided violins. I just think the benefits in live performance is limited in many concert venues. Mark Elder divides the violins in the Bridgewater Hall, but the bathroom acoustic there seems to cancel it out any perceived benefits.

Ah - I see. Yes, for the majority of the audience in such venues, the "stereophonic" must be lost.

There is, though, the corresponding problem that arises from putting the violins together, which is that then the Violas (fewer in number, and weaker in sound anyway) don't have their sound holes pointing as much towards the audience - and, in Brahms and Mozart at least, they frequently double the first violins an octave lower whilst the Second fiddles warble away on broken chords/counter melodies, so Pasto's comment about intonation is even worse as insert favourite Viola player joke here!

[Bryn]

Broucek - the onlie begetter of the Thread (with whose assessment of the wonderful Krivine set I totally agree).

Absolutely! Plus the YouTube set of later performances with a varying approach to repetitions.

[mathias broucek]

Interesting discussion

The point about the differences being much less obvious in the concert hall - particularly further back - is well made. Of course halls were much smaller when much of this music was written...

Jayne's comments are exactly what I was getting at. The interplay between 1sts and 2nds in Mozart, Beethoven and Bruckner. To say nothing of Elgar 3... And of course that wonderful moment when the 1sts and 2nds DO join together where there's an additional frisson if they are on other sides of the sound spectrum.

[Hornspieler]

Boult famously used divided violins all the time (except occasionally such as the infamous Elgar symphonies for Lyrita - his first recordings for them). No composer (I'm confident about this) writing before about 1940 would have expected all violins to be on the same side of the platform as a rule. It was conductors such as Henry Wood and (especially) Stokowski who encouraged the change, largely because you got better ensemble in (mono) recordings.

I would be far more interested in improving the strings' output by having an equal number of 2nd violin desks as 1st violins

The left to right balance would therefore be more beneficial for the stereo (or "question an answer") effect if the sections are divided - or more equally balanced if the back desks of the seconds are behind the back desks of the firsts on the platform.

- but I'm only a horn player. Our main tactic has always been to get as far away from the percussion section as possible.

HS

[Pabmusic]

...- but I'm only a horn player. Our main tactic has always been to get as far away from the percussion section as possible.

HS

Hah! You can talk. I (as a timpanist/percussionist) have always tried not to be behind the horns. Very often I failed miserably.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hah! You can talk. I (as a timpanist/percussionist) have always tried not to be behind the horns. Very often I failed miserably.

Usually there's a row of Trumpets, Trombones and Tubas (y'know: proper brass!) between the Percs and the Horns, isn't there? (Mind you, there's much to be said for a well-aimed drumstick! )

[vinteuil]

Usually there's a row of Trumpets, Trombones and Tubas (y'know: proper brass!) between the Percs and the Horns, isn't there? (Mind you, there's much to be said for a well-aimed drumstick! )

... I knew there was a reason I no longer go to orchestral concerts.

The violence.

And as Ernest Thesiger said, when (repatriated to England wounded in 1915) asked about his experiences in the trenches on the Western Front -

"Oh, my dear, the noise! and the people!"

.