Divided fiddles

[mathias broucek]

I've been loving the Krivine set of the Beethoven symphonies (less than £5 at Quboz...) http://www.for3.org/forums/images/smilies/f_magic.gif #rudenotto

The divided fiddles make SO much difference in pretty much every symphony and I've been finding myself get increasingly obsessive about this over the last few years. My question is:

*** How can anyone musical enough and bright enough to conduct well NOT realise that not dividing fiddles is stoopid for C18 and C19 music? ***

I even came across a recording of the Handel Op. 6 Concerti Grossi where both the soli and all the ripieni violins were on the left http://www.for3.org/forums/images/smilies/f_horror.gif

I just don't get it!!!

Any thoughts?

[richardfinegold]

My understanding is that dividing the first and second violins tends to produce increases in clarity at the expense of diluting the power obtained when they are playing the same music. I prefer them to be divided but isn't it usually the Conductor's call?

[pastoralguy]

Often, as in Brahms, the fiddle will be playing in octaves so having the first and seconds together can help with intonation.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It depends very much on the work being performed. Common sense dictates that an orchestra can't be changing the seating arrangements several times per concert.

[Bryn]

It depends very much on the work being performed. Common sense dictates that an orchestra can't be changing the seating arrangements several times per concert.

As occurs in a good many Proms, when very different orchestral complements are involved in the various works performed, you mean?

[Pulcinella]

Often, as in Brahms, the fiddle will be playing in octaves so having the first and seconds together can help with intonation.

I think that Boult's EMI Brahms symphony cycle (I have the HMV incarnations) has divided strings; maybe the orchestras he conducted did not need help.

[Pabmusic]

I think that Boult's EMI Brahms symphony cycle (I have the HMV incarnations) has divided strings; maybe the orchestras he conducted did not need help.

Boult famously used divided violins all the time (except occasionally such as the infamous Elgar symphonies for Lyrita - his first recordings for them). No composer (I'm confident about this) writing before about 1940 would have expected all violins to be on the same side of the platform as a rule. It was conductors such as Henry Wood and (especially) Stokowski who encouraged the change, largely because you got better ensemble in (mono) recordings.

[Nick Armstrong]

the infamous Elgar symphonies for Lyrita

Why infamous, Pabs? I wasn't aware of any infamy attaching to those wonderful recordings!

[Pabmusic]

Why infamous, Pabs? I wasn't aware of any infamy attaching to those wonderful recordings!

Infamous because Boult was really angry about it. The old Stereo Record Guide reckoned his anger added something to the performances! It probably does, too...

[Nick Armstrong]

Infamous because Boult was really angry about it. The old Stereo Record Guide reckoned his anger added something to the performances! It probably does, too...

Ah, I didn't know that! Love that disc!

[Pulcinella]

Ah, I didn't know that! Love that disc!

You can't have followed this thread then!

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?17148-Boult-s-Elgar-symphonies

[mathias broucek]

It depends very much on the work being performed. Common sense dictates that an orchestra can't be changing the seating arrangements several times per concert.

I get it with live performances but not really in the studio. And the composers will have known about the difficulties of having the fiddles separated...

[silvestrione]

Boult famously used divided violins all the time (except occasionally such as the infamous Elgar symphonies for Lyrita - his first recordings for them). No composer (I'm confident about this) writing before about 1940 would have expected all violins to be on the same side of the platform as a rule. It was conductors such as Henry Wood and (especially) Stokowski who encouraged the change, largely because you got better ensemble in (mono) recordings.

But there's that anecdote about Simon Rattle and the Vienna Philharmonic: when they first invited him (in 1993), to perform Mahler 9, they strongly resisted, apparently, his wish to have divided strings. In the end, typical Rattle, he said either they are divided or I'm not coming!

[richardfinegold]

But there's that anecdote about Simon Rattle and the Vienna Philharmonic: when they first invited him (in 1993), to perform Mahler 9, they strongly resisted, apparently, his wish to have divided strings. In the end, typical Rattle, he said either they are divided or I'm not coming!

Was the objection from the Orchestra about dividing the violins specific to Mahler or as a general practice?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I get it with live performances but not really in the studio. And the composers will have known about the difficulties of having the fiddles separated...

That's interesting, because I've always felt the reverse to be true. The stereo separation is clearer in recordings, so the effect is more noticeable. In most concert halls, you have to be very near the front to be aware of any real difference. It's just something that musicologists like to get excited about.