Schubert 9 and all the repeats

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Are we obliged to follow blindly everything as it was done seventy years ago? By all means, enjoy the recordings of those times, but don't then presume that those of us who prefer to listen to how performers today attempt to recreate composers' intentions are "adopting a sanctimonious moral high ground".

[Richard Barrett]

are we obliged to blindly follow (sorry - split infinitive) everything as it happened 200 years ago?

No, obviously "we" are not.

[Barbirollians]

Are we obliged to follow blindly everything as it was done seventy years ago? By all means, enjoy the recordings of those times, but don't then presume that those of us who prefer to listen to how performers today attempt to recreate composers' intentions are "adopting a sanctimonious moral high ground".

Isn't it arguable though that at least presently few criticise those who wish to be as faithful as possible to original performance practice whilst those who accept that there might have been a point in the practice of 70 years ago face much more criticism ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Isn't it arguable though that at least presently few criticise those who wish to be as faithful as possible to original performance practice whilst those who accept that there might have been a point in the practice of 70 years ago face much more criticism ?

I don't know of anyone who criticises Furtwangler, Barbs - possibly because what would be the point? He's not around - it would be like criticising steam railways. And what is there to criticise about "those who wish to be as faithful as possible to original performance practice"? Some of the results of such efforts, perhaps, but the actual principle can only be respected, surely?

[Richard Barrett]

I don't know of anyone who criticises Furtwängler

I'm an admirer of Furtwängler actually. I don't think there's anything outdated about what he did. To say there is would be a bit like criticising Mahler for not writing electronic music. Der Zeit ihre Kunst, der Kunst ihre Freiheit.

[Pabmusic]

It may well have been "what happened", but are we obliged to blindly follow (sorry - split infinitive) everything as it happened 200 years ago? By all means give it a go, but don't then adopt a sanctimonious moral high ground when others decide/prefer to do things differently.

When I bought my first miniature score at the age of 11 (Mozart 40) I discovered that Furtwangler omitted the repeats in the 2nd and 4th movements, and I wondered why this was. When I did eventually hear it played with every repeat observed, my curiosity was satisfied, but it helped me to understand why it was not often performed in this way.


W

Absolutely nothing grammatically wrong with splitting an infinitive, and its rather a good analogy. It never was a rule of English grammar (why on earth shouldn't an adverb be placed there?) - it's a relatively recent convention of style that teachers could jump on easily. And don't we do something similar with music? Although I am always first to say we begin with what's written, there are times when 'breaking the rules' is justified - but it needs to be thought through so that it can be justified.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm an admirer of Furtwängler actually. I don't think there's anything outdated about what he did. To say there is would be a bit like criticising Mahler for not writing electronic music. Der Zeit ihre Kunst, der Kunst ihre Freiheit.

I'm a great admirer of Furtwangler, too - and of his recording of the Schubert "9", too; it reveals things about the score that remain insightful and powerful. But, of course, there are other things in the score that he misses - as do all performances of a work of this nature of complexity. All performances are partial - that is why my admiration is weighted towards the composer rather than to the performer on occasions like this - even when the performance is led by Furtwangler.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Absolutely nothing grammatically wrong with splitting an infinitive, and its rather a good analogy. It never was a rule of English grammar (why on earth shouldn't an adverb be placed there?) - it's a relatively recent convention of style that teachers could jump on easily. And don't we do something similar with music? Although I am always first to say we begin with what's written, there are times when 'breaking the rules' is justified - but it needs to be thought through so that it can be justified.

I don't think it is a good analogy, Pabs, unless there are examples of actors/directors declaiming "To be or to not be" on the grounds that Shakespeare was simply following an outdated convention and had he been alive today, he would have preferred the line that way.

[jayne lee wilson]

I don't think it is a good analogy, Pabs, unless there are examples of actors/directors declaiming "To be or to not be" on the grounds that Shakespeare was simply following an outdated convention and had he been alive today, he would have preferred the line that way.

Just try rewriting, or re-ordering "To boldly go where no man has gone before..."
....written that way almost instinctively for its semantic cadential emphases, the natural flow of the rhythm. As is "To be or not to be: that is the question.."

I can't imagine either writer thinking about grammar much...

***
As for musical rule-breaking, I liked this, from Richard Osborne:

“Time and again, he brings out details in Beethoven’s writing…... which simultaneously violate the text and illuminate the moment..”
Richard Osborne on Willem Mengelberg’s 1940 Amsterdam Beethoven Symphony Cycle, Gramophone, 4/1986.

For a fascinating account of Mengelberg's Amsterdam Beethoven, and a study, too, in the evolution of one reviewer's attitudes towards such creative interpretation, see both Osborne's reviews in Gramophone, 9/87 (Decca Jubilee LPs) and 4/86 (Philips CDs).
I can certainly vouch for the excellent quality of the recent Pristine transfers, of recordings that were outstanding for their time (glass acetates).

(what gives with the fonts, huh? sorry, copy & paste up to its old tricks again....)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I was JOKING about the split infinitive, which is why I left it in. The controversy isn't new, dating from Dryden in th 1670s.

[cloughie]

Just try rewriting, or re-ordering "To boldly go where no man has gone before..."
....written that way almost instinctively for its semantic cadential emphases, the natural flow of the rhythm. As is "To be or not to be: that is the question.."

I can't imagine either writer thinking about grammar much...

***
As for musical rule-breaking, I liked this, from Richard Osborne:

“Time and again, he brings out details in Beethoven’s writing…... which simultaneously violate the text and illuminate the moment..”
Richard Osborne on Willem Mengelberg’s 1940 Amsterdam Beethoven Symphony Cycle, Gramophone, 4/1986.

For a fascinating account of Mengelberg's Amsterdam Beethoven, and a study, too, in the evolution of one reviewer's attitudes towards such creative interpretation, see both Osborne's reviews in Gramophone, 9/87 (Decca Jubilee LPs) and 4/86 (Philips CDs).
I can certainly vouch for the excellent quality of the recent Pristine transfers, of recordings that were outstanding for their time (glass acetates).

(what gives with the fonts, huh? sorry, copy & paste up to its old tricks again....)

I've never been wowed by Mengelberg, Jayne. Are there any recordings which would be likely to convert me?

[David-G]

His fine 1988 Virgin Classics release with the OAE certainly did (the first of three Mackerras recordings

The OAE arrived as LPs were being phased out. This OAE Schubert 9 was I think their only LP.

[jayne lee wilson]

I've never been wowed by Mengelberg, Jayne. Are there any recordings which would be likely to convert me?

I've only just begun my own adventure! But have a good browse and sample here...

https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-willem-mengelberg

The offered excerpts are of complete movements in mp3 320kbps....
Richard Osborne was especially impressed with the Franck Symphony, the Brahms 1st, and the Beethoven 1st and 4th - but do read his reviews for all the detail...
I'll try to say more later, but the 1st movement of the Brahms impressed me with its keen-edged swiftness, drama and articulacy. There were one or two idiosyncrasies in the Beethoven 2 & 8 which distracted me somewhat - a tendency to slow..right....down..... at the end of paragraphs or in lyrical second subjects. And his sudden rhetorical gestures can sometimes startle!
But most of the time I was lost in admiration for the sheer precision and beauty of sound he produces from the Concertgebouw. (Perhaps a little too lost for careful critical appraisal...). The orchestra we came to know so well from Van Beinum and especially Haitink were almost single-handedly his creation, after all...

[Hornspieler]

I've only just begun my own adventure! But have a good browse and sample here...

https://www.pristineclassical.com/collections/artist-willem-mengelberg

The offered excerpts are of complete movements in mp3 320kbps....
Richard Osborne was especially impressed with the Franck Symphony, the Brahms 1st, and the Beethoven 1st and 4th - but do read his reviews for all the detail...
I'll try to say more later, but the 1st movement of the Brahms impressed me with its keen-edged swiftness, drama and articulacy. There were one or two idiosyncrasies in the Beethoven 2 & 8 which distracted me somewhat - a tendency to slow..right....down..... at the end of paragraphs or in lyrical second subjects. And his sudden rhetorical gestures can sometimes startle!
But most of the time I was lost in admiration for the sheer precision and beauty of sound he produces from the Concertgebouw. (Perhaps a little too lost for careful critical appraisal...). The orchestra we came to know so well from Van Beinum and especially Haitink were almost single-handedly his creation, after all...

Very interesting. Jayne (as are all your posts) But isn't this getting a little bit far away from the subject of this thread?
(Repeats in Schubert's Great C Major Symphony)

HS

[cloughie]

Just received the Leibowitz box. Disc 3 contains Mozart 41 (25 mins) and Schubert 9 (45 mins). Not had a listedn yet but I don't think there will be many repeats!