What download have you bought?

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne, what equipment are you using? Perhaps that might not be helping.

Usual highly resolved, neutral/revealing/touch-of-warmth T&A/ATC/Harbeth etc.... and believe me Beef, without prejudice...you know me well enough by now, I'm very open to new approaches. But the notes to the album go into some detail about what Debussy wanted and felt some frustration in trying to achieve. The Roth recording gives us almost the exact opposite. Sometimes this works, but on this occasion if I seem uncompromising, it is simply because I felt that this presentation doesn't serve the music very well....
As for "authentic"... very hmmm....! Not to Debussy's ghost I suspect, if he happens to be listening in...

It's that Gradgrindish just the notes, nothing but the notes...
See my just-posted Schubert d810/Chiaroscuro review for an account of how an "explicit" approach really can be revelatory....

***
Dave 2k2 - yes, you can have poor recordings at any bitrate; point is, the higher the resolution, the clearer the reason why it's poor. If you hear a good, analytical monitor speaker e.g. Harbeth, ATC etc., even poorer recordings can be more enjoyable simply because of the greater reveal of the acoustic, performers, and technical approach etc...

[Beef Oven!]

Usual highly resolved, neutral/revealing/touch-of-warmth T&A/ATC/Harbeth etc.... and believe me Beef, without prejudice...you know me well enough by now, I'm very open to new approaches. But the notes to the album go into some detail about what Debussy wanted and felt some frustration in trying to achieve. The Roth recording gives us almost the exact opposite. Sometimes this works, but on this occasion if I seem uncompromising, it is simply because I felt that this presentation doesn't serve the music very well....
As for "authentic"... very hmmm....! Not to Debussy's ghost I suspect, if he happens to be listening in...

It's that Gradgrindish just the notes, nothing but the notes...
See my just-posted Schubert d810/Chiaroscuro review for an account of how an "explicit" approach really can be revelatory....

Maybe if you unplug all the leads etc and then put them back. Sometimes this can help. When was the last time you did that? Just trying to be helpful

Have you listened to Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune yet? That will make you change your mind.

[jayne lee wilson]

I'll move onto Jeux and the Faun later (bringing in Immerseel on the latter, perhaps...) ...

As for my connections... they're immaculate! Kontak-treated of course... (but next treat up is Chelsea - City....see ya later...!)

[Bryn]

Maybe if you unplug all the leads etc and then put them back. Sometimes this can help. When was the last time you did that? Just trying to be helpful

Have you listened to Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune yet? That will make you change your mind.

I am not aware of jlw being a grandmother, let alone yours, but whatever, I would suggest you do not try teaching her to suck eggs where HiFi installations are concerned.

[Beef Oven!]

I am not aware of jlw being a grandmother, let alone yours, but whatever, I would suggest you do not try teaching her to suck eggs where HiFi installations are concerned.

I was pulling her leg Bryn. And I know full well that Jayne can hear things the rest of us can't

[Dave2002]

I was pulling her leg Bryn. And I know full well that Jayne can hear things the rest of us can't

I suppose this is a mere £50 per can - http://www.kontakaudio.com/ Actually not - only about £21 from Amazon - but one might have thought otherwise from the list of "wonders" which a mere cleaner can provide The write up was worthy of Russ Andrews!!!

[Bryn]

I suppose this is a mere £50 per can - http://www.kontakaudio.com/ Actually not - only about £21 from Amazon - but one might have thought otherwise from the list of "wonders" which a mere cleaner can provide The write up was worthy of Russ Andrews!!!

It does rather look like an oil of Enhydris chinensis substitute. Now gold on nickel contacts, that's a real problem which even the real thing will not help, except as a decidedly short-term solution[sic].

[jayne lee wilson]

Immerseel’s Debussy Faun takes you deep into its dreamy, otherworldly vision. Here is a conductor who knows about coloristic and expressive nuance, and produces them upon his Anima Eterna orchestra to wonderful effect, creating that essential languorousness, so true to the poetical spirit of the work (as to its Mallarméan inspiration - assoupi de sommeils touffus/heavy with tufted slumbers). That sweetly narcotic euphoria of the climax...gorgeous.

At over 11’ this is more than 2’ longer than the new Xavier-Roth; some may find the languor a little too dreamy; but, recorded with spaciousness and warmth, it transfixed me, and made me smile on a chilly, windy December night. Utterly lovely.

Following on from his study-score sonic analysis of the Nocturnes, at first I thought of Roth’s Prelude: ah, that’s better…there’s at least some colour and yieldingness there….. but doubts soon crept in.
Surprisingly loud from the start, it never gets very quiet does it? Set quite close, with those somewhat overbearing violins again…

So I was left with a similar impression to the Nocturnes: this Faun is a bit two-dimensional for space and colour, and lacks atmosphere, dynamic subtlety or phrasal seductiveness… it’s not terrible; not terribly special either.
(I tried various filters, even attenuation; didn’t help much).

Do compare Immerseel and Roth; the contrasts are obvious, and very instructive…

(Both heard via Qobuz Studio, 24/44.1.)

[Beef Oven!]

Thanks for the steer on Immerseel, I listened to it through and will need to give it another go later tonight. I enjoyed it, but by comparison found it rather languid and even almost falling into stasis in places. JVI doesn't capture enough of the dance-nature of the piece, it's as if Diaghilev's Ballets Russes had no bearing on the composition. The trap that a performance can fall into is that of languorousness and so many do (including JVI, IMO). Now Xavier Roth on the other hand has the most incredible sounding flute ever and injects such dynamic rhythm and pacing that one can completely identify with Pierre Boulez's declaration that the piece represents the beginning of modern music. I've played the CD (Hi-Res download) six or seven times today. so I'm a bit besotted and perhaps not being as objective as I could be. But, bought in December, I think it might be my eleventh-hour recording of the year! As I type I have Jeux playing and the rhythm/movement is unprecedented in this work. I'm sure I'll get to like the JVI very much at least some aspects of it, but right now by comparison it is coming across as a sonic version of one of those French impressionist calendars that were all the rage in the 90s! Sorry, it's a miss for me. Having said all that, even based on just one listen, I prefer it (Faun) to nearly all previous recordings including Karajan, Boulez, Haitink, Monteux and Martinon.

Immerseel’s Debussy Faun takes you deep into its dreamy, otherworldly vision. Here is a conductor who knows about coloristic and expressive nuance, and produces them upon his Anima Eterna orchestra to wonderful effect, creating that essential languorousness, so true to the poetical spirit of the work (as to its Mallarméan inspiration - assoupi de sommeils touffus/heavy with tufted slumbers). That sweetly narcotic euphoria of the climax...gorgeous.

At over 11’ this is more than 2’ longer than the new Xavier-Roth; some may find the languor a little too dreamy; but, recorded with spaciousness and warmth, it transfixed me, and made me smile on a chilly, windy December night. Utterly lovely.

Following on from his study-score sonic analysis of the Nocturnes, at first I thought of Roth’s Prelude: ah, that’s better…there’s at least some colour and yieldingness there….. but doubts soon crept in.
Surprisingly loud from the start, it never gets very quiet does it? Set quite close, with those somewhat overbearing violins again…

So I was left with a similar impression to the Nocturnes: this Faun is a bit two-dimensional for space and colour, and lacks atmosphere, dynamic subtlety or phrasal seductiveness… it’s not terrible; not terribly special either.
(I tried various filters, even attenuation; didn’t help much).

Do compare Immerseel and Roth; the contrasts are obvious, and very instructive…

(Both heard via Qobuz Studio, 24/44.1.)

[jayne lee wilson]

Well, Debussy's Prélude a l'Après-Midi d'un Faune wasn't written as a ballet or a dance of course. It is a symphonic poem, inspired by Stéphane Mallarmé's poem L'Après-Midi d'un Faune (and very clearly relatable to the poem's symbolist evocations, though like any music it takes on a life of its own) composed in 1894. Initially unhappy at the idea of music inspired by a poem of his, once heard, Mallarmé admired the music greatly.

Nijinsky choreographed it for Diaghilev's Ballets Russes in 1912.

Mallarmé said "paint, not the thing, but the effect it produces".. ...I do feel Debussy was musically in sympathy with that aesthetic approach.

[Beef Oven!]

Well, Debussy's Prélude a l'Après-Midi d'un Faune wasn't written as a ballet or a dance of course. It is a symphonic poem, inspired by Stephane Mallarmé's poem L'Après-Midi d'un Faune (and very clearly relatable to the poem's symbolist evocations, though like any music it takes on a life of its own) composed in 1894. Nijinsky choreographed it for Diaghilev's company in 1912.

Mallarmé said "paint, not the thing, but the effect it produces".. ...I do feel Debussy was musically in sympathy with that aesthetic approach.

Yes, that's why I was careful in what I said about the dance/ballet perspective.

Regarding Nocturnes, That's really growing on me in the Roth performance. And I get a very different experience from you with the voices. I actually feel that they are melded into the orchestral music in a way that others are not. Even the Karajan or Boulez can sound like the voices are just 'stuck on' for no real reason.

[jayne lee wilson]

Incidentally, returning to your comment about Boulez (#549): I don't think his comment about the Faun as the beginning of modern music had "dynamic rhythm and pacing" in mind, did it?
Surely he admired it for its sheer fluidity, an improvisatory feel with no sense of a "fixed form"... which I think is borne out in his own music, especially the more obviously Debussian works like Dérive or Mémoriale...

[Beef Oven!]

Incidentally, returning to your comment about Boulez (#549): I don't think his comment about the Faun as the beginning of modern music had "dynamic rhythm and pacing" in mind, did it?
Surely he admired it for its sheer fluidity, an improvisatory feel with no sense of a "fixed form"... which I think is borne out in his own music, especially the more obviously Debussian works like Dérive or Mémoriale...

Alas, we can't know what was in Boulez's mind. I'd like to think that a forward motion, but with no regular beat or guiding home key, had something to do with his declaration.

[jayne lee wilson]

“the flute of the faun brought new breath to the art of music; what was overthrown was not so much the art of development, as the very concept of form itself’.”

- Boulez, quoted in Gramophone 3/18...

"Mallarmé was initially irked that his poem was to be set to music, but was completely won round by the first performance, writing to the composer: ‘Your illustration of TheAfternoon of a Faun, which presents a dissonance with my text only by going much further, really, into nostalgia and into light, with finesse, with sensuality, with richness. I press your hand admiringly, Debussy.’"

Gramophone 3/18....

[Beef Oven!]

Yes I read those two morsels. Doesn't tell us much other than Boulez thought the flute in Faun was the key to his reason why the piece was so important in terms of form, and that Mallarmé thought that Debussy had captured the feeling of his poem. But I agree that it's fun to project onto this with one's own ideas.

“the flute of the faun brought new breath to the art of music; what was overthrown was not so much the art of development, as the very concept of form itself’.”

- Boulez, quoted in Gramophone 3/18...

"Mallarmé was initially irked that his poem was to be set to music, but was completely won round by the first performance, writing to the composer: ‘Your illustration of TheAfternoon of a Faun, which presents a dissonance with my text only by going much further, really, into nostalgia and into light, with finesse, with sensuality, with richness. I press your hand admiringly, Debussy.’"

Gramophone 3/18....