What download have you bought?

[jayne lee wilson]

Well, with a few reservations, the great Roger Nichols liked that Berlin/Abbado version very much, which is more than good enough for me!

These things are evidently subjective, but I feel a serious listener has to at least take that particular poetic fin-de-siècle/ Debussian orchestral aesthetic into account, whatever she chooses to do with her auditory perceptions afterward. All shall have prizes doesn't really work for me here. (It isn't a strict dichotomy of course; just the need for the contrast - in performance - across the continuum of perception, from amorphous to precise and sharp)...

Turning pedant for a moment - my first thesis was actually on Mallarmé (written in French for God's sake, well beyond me now) so I always feel very aware of, and close to, that fluid, exciting, evolving aesthetic leading into various shades of modernism, very live at that historical moment.... ( and I brought music in wherever I could of course...!)

[Beresford]

Re. the new Debussy/Roth issue, has anyone here tried the CD/DVD version? If so, what is the DVD like?

This may be the source of the Debussy Xavier Roth video in Granada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZfdq4EQ910
The players don't look as though they are enjoying themselves, and the strings are a bit pushy.

I suspect everyone has their own speed preference in L'apres midi d'une faune (and in other things). Mine is definitely a bit languorous - Giulini with the Concertgebouw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXCc0WT0tpY

I have a similar (to the Roth) issue with the recent Isabel Faust recording of the Debussy Violin sonata, which was played in full on "Sunday" this morning.
Impeccable playing, as far as I can tell, but I failed to warm to it. I would like to know if other Forumites have similar impressions.
It was released after the BAL was broadcast earlier this year - which put Jennifer Pike in top spot.

[Beef Oven!]

La Mer is probably the piece of music that I've witnessed most in concert including three times by Boulez and it is nearly always on my DAP. However, a couple of months ago I took it off my player because I simply wasn't enjoying it. I was surprised. Then following a discussion on this forum, I bought the Tabachnik and Elder CDs and normal service was resumed! (More thanks to Tabachnik than Elder). I suspect that I've had enough of the 'impressionist' approach to Debussy at the moment (I have the Abbado BPO recordings and although Faun is fine, I find Nocturnes unlistenable right now). Xavier-Roth and Tabachnik appear not to think that anything Debussy must be first and foremost ethereally dreamlike and otherworldly. And if Jayne's right about Boulez's view of Faun and Mallarmé, I'm glad that Xavier-Roth for one didn't listen to him.

[Bryn]

This may be the source of the Debussy Xavier Roth video in Granada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZfdq4EQ910
The players don't look as though they are enjoying themselves, and the strings are a bit pushy.

I suspect everyone has their own speed preference in L'apres midi d'une faune (and in other things). Mine is definitely a bit languorous - Giulini with the Concertgebouw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXCc0WT0tpY

I have a similar (to the Roth) issue with the recent Isabel Faust recording of the Debussy Violin sonata, which was played in full on "Sunday" this morning.
Impeccable playing, as far as I can tell, but I failed to warm to it. I would like to know if other Forumites have similar impressions.
It was released after the BAL was broadcast earlier this year - which put Jennifer Pike in top spot.

Ah, I found this (translated by Chrome from the German original):

On a bonus DVD, you can also enjoy the original sound of Les Siècles and François-Xavier Roth through a recording of the impressive backdrop of the Alhambra from June this year. In addition to "Jeux" and "Nocturnes", there is also the rarely heard "Marche écosaisse, sur un thème populaire", which Debussy composed on the basis of a Scottish bagpipe melody. Les Siècles and François-Xavier Roth thus unify milestones in music history as well as less-accessible works by Debussy in their maximum orchestral luminosity - a more than worthy contribution to the end of Debussy.

Looks like I will be ordering the CD+DVD from Presto Classical. I just have to find some other tiems to built the total bill to over £30 for the 'free' p&p.

[HighlandDougie]

This may be the source of the Debussy Xavier Roth video in Granada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZfdq4EQ910
The players don't look as though they are enjoying themselves, and the strings are a bit pushy.

If I were playing outdoors in Southern Spain in June togged up in a suit and tie - even in the evening - I'm not sure that I would be having a great time either! But I think there is sufficient evidence (e.g. between the first and second Nocturnes) to show that it's not a complete glum-fest on the part of Les Siècles either. "Pushy" strings? Not sure that I wholly understand what you mean??

[jayne lee wilson]

La Mer is probably the piece of music that I've witnessed most in concert including three times by Boulez and it is nearly always on my DAP. However, a couple of months ago I took it off my player because I simply wasn't enjoying it. I was surprised. Then following a discussion on this forum, I bought the Tabachnik and Elder CDs and normal service was resumed! (More thanks to Tabachnik than Elder). I suspect that I've had enough of the 'impressionist' approach to Debussy at the moment (I have the Abbado BPO recordings and although Faun is fine, I find Nocturnes unlistenable right now). Xavier-Roth and Tabachnik appear not to think that anything Debussy must be first and foremost ethereally dreamlike and otherworldly. And if Jayne's right about Boulez's view of Faun and Mallarmé, I'm glad that Xavier-Roth for one didn't listen to him.

I don't wish to repeat myself too much but as I said above - it's about first: understanding the aesthetics of the time, and their relation to Debussy's own stated ideals; and secondly, allowing the sonic and expressive range of the music itself its fullest range of contrasts. Elder does this stunningly well in La Mer, that sense of coming out of the shadows into the light, the play of light and shade upon the wind and the waves. (It isn't just about being "first and foremost ethereally dreamlike and otherworldly" - although I think that is true of the Faun - try reading the poem..).

I listened to that surely ungainsayable classic, the RCOA/Haitink Nocturnes, earlier: it is more explicit than the Abbado, but still very evocative and expressively varied and - crucially I feel in this music: given space and distance (like Giulini in Kingsway, another favourite too). And a brilliant climax to Fêtes, if not quite as stunningly ablaze as those Berliners (surely no-one would fail to respond to the Abbado at this point...?).

Detail: given Roth's more revealing, closer-set approach, doesn't his Fêtes disappoint on its own terms? The climax there is very repressed - you could even describe it as, quite simply, poorly balanced, over-emphasising percussion..... (compare those mentioned above).
I find the interpretation of this movement too heavy and over-emphatic anyway (that last transition into the suddenly slower coda is well, prosaic; even plodding) but even if it weren't - the disappointing climax would be enough to keep me from returning (especially after several patient revisits/comparisons this weekend..).

(We haven't even touched on the Parisian/French Orchestras of the 1950/60s - the classic French sound which seems to these ears paid homage to more in Haitink or Abbado, rather than the radicalisme of Les Siècles...
I might try Rosenthal next...think I have Ansermet on a gold cd somewhere too)

[Beef Oven!]

I've never gone for the 'undesrtanding the aesthetics of the time' idea, when it comes to music and probably never will. Too many composers, too many times and too many aesthetics! Of course it's nice to sometimes delve into the historical/cultural/artistic context, but it's never a necessary prerequisite. I think reading the poem again might help somewhat - I haven't looked at it for a good 25 years!

Your post prompted me to spin the Haitink Nocturnes. It's special, for sure and I much prefer it to the Abbado. By the way, I'll never give up on the old guard performances and will surely return to them often.

We disagree on Xavier-Roth's performances, but we knew that - not much more to say about it ......

I don't wish to repeat myself too much but as I said above - it's about first: understanding the aesthetics of the time, and their relation to Debussy's own stated ideals; and secondly, allowing the sonic and expressive range of the music itself its fullest range of contrasts. Elder does this stunningly well in La Mer, that sense of coming out of the shadows into the light, the play of light and shade upon the wind and the waves. (It isn't just about being "first and foremost ethereally dreamlike and otherworldly" - although I think that is true of the Faun - try reading the poem..).

I listened to that surely ungainsayable classic, the RCOA/Haitink Nocturnes, earlier: it is more explicit than the Abbado, but still very evocative and expressively varied and - crucially I feel in this music: given space and distance (like Giulini in Kingsway, another favourite too). And a brilliant climax to Fêtes, if not quite as stunningly ablaze as those Berliners (surely no-one would fail to respond to the Abbado at this point...?).

Detail: given Roth's more revealing, closer-set approach, doesn't his Fêtes disappoint on its own terms? The climax there is very repressed - you could even describe it as, quite simply, poorly balanced, over-emphasising percussion..... (compare those mentioned above).
I find the interpretation of this movement too heavy and over-emphatic anyway (that last transition into the suddenly slower coda is well, prosaic; even plodding) but even if it weren't - the disappointing climax would be enough to keep me from returning (especially after several patient revisits/comparisons this weekend..).

(We haven't even touched on the Parisian/French Orchestras of the 1950/60s - the classic French sound which seems to these ears paid homage to more in Haitink or Abbado, rather than the radicalisme of Les Siècles...
I might try Rosenthal next...think I have Ansermet on a gold cd somewhere too)

[jayne lee wilson]

Except - it's been an enjoyable exchange of views... (and others still very welcome, anyone...!)

More like this!

[Beef Oven!]

Except - it's been an enjoyable exchange of views... (and others still very welcome, anyone...!)

More like this!

[Beresford]

[/I]

Ah, I found this:
Les Siècles and François-Xavier Roth thus unify milestones in music history as well as less-accessible works by Debussy in their maximum orchestral luminosity - a more than worthy contribution to the end of Debussy.
.

Yes, but do you actually like it?

[Beresford]

If I were playing outdoors in Southern Spain in June togged up in a suit and tie - even in the evening - I'm not sure that I would be having a great time either! ... "Pushy" strings? Not sure that I wholly understand what you mean??

Point taken about the Spanish heat. And strings outdoors always seem to struggle more than brass and woodwind.
Don't you think that the string sound just after 51' and 60' is a bit more suitable to Beethoven than Debussy? It could be the outdoors making them like that, or it could be the briskness, making the phrases seem somewhat chopped.

[Bryn]

[/I]

Yes, but do you actually like it?

As I thought I had made clear, I have neither seen nor heard the DVD that comes with the CD. What I was advising was that the DVD was clearly not of the Granada concert, since the programme is rather different. What I have heard of the 'CD' via QOBOZ lossless CD rate streaming I found much to my taste, though I have only listened the once. I have now ordered the discs from Presto Classical, along with a couple of Blu-rays.

[HighlandDougie]

Point taken about the Spanish heat. And strings outdoors always seem to struggle more than brass and woodwind.
Don't you think that the string sound just after 51' and 60' is a bit more suitable to Beethoven than Debussy? It could be the outdoors making them like that, or it could be the briskness, making the phrases seem somewhat chopped.

I take your point - I think that it might be the acoustics of the alfresco performance space, coupled with the tempi which give that impression. While I enjoyed the DVD, I regard it as an enjoyable add-on, especially for the Marche Écossaise, but not a replacement for the Paris performances, bright acoustics of the Philharmonie notwithstanding. The concert was on Sunday 24 June at 22.30 (it's Spain, after all):

Programa
Claude Debussy
Marche écossaise, sur un thème populaire, L. 77 (6 min)
Jeux, L. 126 (19 min)

César Franck
Variaciones sinfónicas, op. 46 (15 min)

INTERMEDIO

Claude Debussy
Nocturnes, L. 91 (22 min)

Camille Saint-Saëns
Bacchanale, de Samson et Dalila, op. 47 (8 min)

[Bryn]

Well, not a happy first go with Xavier-Roth's Debussy Nocturnes....

It's just far too explicit. Debussy's study in grey or his backlit orchestra? Not much. There's little sense of blended colours here, everything is well-lit from the front, almost an orchestral x-ray with no atmosphere or evocation of anything...Clouds? I could only hear wind and string lines.... I sat chin in hand, utterly unmoved, more glumly insomniac than ever.

The violins are often too bright and loud, the wordless chorus all too analytically separate - the opposite of what Debussy craved. Where the orchestra cuts off suddenly before the Procession in Fêtes, the reverb sounds oddly artificial. And what gives with the climax? The drums seem to stifle the brasses, creating an oddly congested effect. Rhythms throughout, but most damagingly in Sirènes, are stiff and four-square....

New Release of the Day.....not!

(Qobuz Studio Stream, 24/44.1)

See http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...192#post711192

I concur with your comments, having now listened to both the CD and the DVD.

[Beef Oven!]

See http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...192#post711192

I concur with your comments, having now listened to both the CD and the DVD.

For clarity, is the basis of your view a belief in the fidelity to a composer's express wishes?