HVK much the best conductor of Beethoven 8 ever (on record) - discuss ?

[jayne lee wilson]

With respect to Toscanini's outbursts, bullying or not, see Joseph Horowitz's psychoanalytical approach... in particular the indented quote from Martin H. Blum down the page...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PYVoi8JK0WMC&pg=PA447&lpg=PA447&dq=was+toscanini+a+bully&source=bl&ots=V3zjnjoVHH&sig=vem42RBgrVI0lSE8mxmQBbcLauA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFq9jF17HRAhWCthoKHY2VDIsQ6AEILTAD#v=onepage&q=was%20toscanini%20a%20bully&f=false

Love of the Oppressor is a classic psychological reaction which can take various forms - think of how his trainee musicians feel about Terence Fletcher in the film Whiplash or more archetypally, how Winston comes to "love" Big Brother in Orwell's 1984. And of course human behaviour under totalitarian regimes generally...

[Dave2002]

With respect to Toscanini's outbursts, bullying or not, see Joseph Horowitz's psychoanalytical approach... in particular the indented quote from Martin H. Blum down the page...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PYVoi8JK0WMC&pg=PA447&lpg=PA447&dq=was+toscanini+a+bully&source=bl&ots=V3zjnjoVHH&sig=vem42RBgrVI0lSE8mxmQBbcLauA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFq9jF17HRAhWCthoKHY2VDIsQ6AEILTAD#v=onepage&q=was%20toscanini%20a%20bully&f=false

Love of the Oppressor is a classic psychological reaction which can take various forms - think of how his trainee musicians feel about Terence Fletcher in the film Whiplash or more archetypally, how Winston comes to "love" Big Brother in Orwell's 1984. And of course human behaviour under totalitarian regimes generally...

Speculative psychobiographical sketch – summarised …. As it says in that text. It was written 26 years after Toscanini’s death – based on what?

Consultation notes? Was Blum someone whom Toscanini consulted? It seems unlikely. Perhaps other family members consulted Blum. If so, Blum probably broke some trust, as surely any comments would be confidential, and subject to strict rules of conduct.

This is still only one account – though there may be others which might tend to confirm Blum’s version.

I'm not saying that bullying behaviour wasn't one of Toscanini's characteristics - but until now I had not read anything at all "definitive" and even now I'd question it.

What is interesting is that Blum gives more detail, which if true might indicate some other problems - autism, Asperger's, ASC perhaps .... Mute and isolated in early years - some autistic people are like that. If so, one might suspect that Toscanini was at the high functioning end of the spectrum - otherwise he wouldn't have achieved so much. Perhaps, as suggested by Blum, the people he dealt with realised that he had a problem, but put up with it because of his perhaps obvious talents. That's not implausible.

PS: Is Whiplash worth seeing? I've had divergent reports - one like, one dislike.

[Barbirollians]

I'm struggling to recall any BaL's on Beethoven 8.

If there has been one not for a while - No BAL recommendation on Presto .

[jayne lee wilson]

Speculative psychobiographical sketch – summarised …. As it says in that text. It was written 26 years after Toscanini’s death – based on what?

Consultation notes? Was Blum someone whom Toscanini consulted? It seems unlikely. Perhaps other family members consulted Blum. If so, Blum probably broke some trust, as surely any comments would be confidential, and subject to strict rules of conduct.

This is still only one account – though there may be others which might tend to confirm Blum’s version.

I'm not saying that bullying behaviour wasn't one of Toscanini's characteristics - but until now I had not read anything at all "definitive" and even now I'd question it.

What is interesting is that Blum gives more detail, which if true might indicate some other problems - autism, Asperger's, ASC perhaps .... Mute and isolated in early years - some autistic people are like that. If so, one might suspect that Toscanini was at the high functioning end of the spectrum - otherwise he wouldn't have achieved so much. Perhaps, as suggested by Blum, the people he dealt with realised that he had a problem, but put up with it because of his perhaps obvious talents. That's not implausible.

PS: Is Whiplash worth seeing? I've had divergent reports - one like, one dislike.

Dave - I dislike the simplistic labelling use of "bully" or "bullying" as much as you. Psychoanalysis is closer to art than science so necessarily speculative. But it can offer "redescription" - an attempt to analyse why someone became as they are, behave as they do, and inspire or provoke certain behaviours in those they interact with. Which in certain unusual creative cases can offer a path to the truth, even perhaps to salvation, in a very human rather than a religious sense.

I linked to the Horowitz/Blum texts because they seemed to me to offer just such a redescription.

Whiplash is a wonderful film. One that resonates with you long after the experience. Try not to look at youtube spoilers before you see it - and its shattering finale!

[BBMmk2]

The re-mastering of Abbado's Berlin account another favourite

[Dave2002]

jlw

Thanks for the Whiplash recommendation. I'll add it to my "to watch" list.

I'll reserve judgement on Toscanini's behaviour for a while longer. Some of Blum's comments do seem plausible - perhaps not so much is known about Toscanini.

I found this as a result of another discussion towards the end of last year - http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/...avo-j%C3%A4rvi

I may have one of Paavo Järvi's recordings somewhere - though might have got lost (wretched download ....) - I really like many of his performances.

Currently listening to Toscanini - which I suggested earlier. It's not as fast as I thought it might be, but it is pretty hard and the recording is atrocious by some more modern standards. How did they achieve the close to 0db differential between outbursts and piano/pianissimo? OK - someone will measure it and tell me it's really 15dB (I don't know) - but there's pretty minimal dynamics - though somehow one can tell the difference between loud and soft - must be other clues.

I suspect it really was a lot, lot better in the hall - or studio if this was a studio recording. Here is one of his versions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D33BeVg3RPQ

[Barbirollians]

I don't know that one BBM there are good reviews about of Abbado's 1960s accounts and the Rome cycle .

[EnemyoftheStoat]

No such thing as "best" in musical performance.

"Preferred" is a more appropriate word to express one' opinion.

HS

yes, Yes, YES!!!

[BBMmk2]

I don't know that one BBM there are good reviews about of Abbado's 1960s accounts and the Rome cycle .

Apologies Barbs, 2008, with the Berliners.

[silvestrione]

No such thing as "best" in musical performance.

"Preferred" is a more appropriate word to express one' opinion.

HS

no, no, NO!

It's going too far to say there are only individual opinions, and anything goes...

I think most of us aspire to agree about what are the best performances, knowing we will always want to qualify others' (hopefully carefully argued and supported) judgements, and also knowing we will never finally reach agreement! On the best, that is...we may well all just about agree on bad or incompetent performances.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think most of us aspire to agree about what are the best performances, knowing we will always want to qualify others' (hopefully carefully argued and supported) judgements, and also knowing we will never finally reach agreement! On the best, that is...we may well all just about agree on bad or incompetent performances.

"Best performances" of a single work, perhaps - but the works themselves if they're any good (and Beethoven #8 is one of the best) cannot be fully represented by any one single performance; they need several to give a listener an overview (?"oversound"? - certainly not "overhear"!) of "the work". I agree with Hornspieler - we can have our favourite recording(s) of a work; but it underestimates the work to say that there can be a "best".

[teamsaint]

"Best performances" of a single work, perhaps - but the works themselves if they're any good (and Beethoven #8 is one of the best) cannot be fully represented by any one single performance; they need several to give a listener an overview (?"oversound"? - certainly not "overhear"!) of "the work". I agree with Hornspieler - we can have our favourite recording(s) of a work; but it underestimates the work to say that there can be a "best".

But a " best " doesn't have to be perfect.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But a " best " doesn't have to be perfect.

No, indeed - but that opens a whole can of worms (not necessarily a bad thing, unless you wanted beans on toast) : how can anyone say that this is the "best" unless they can demonstrate that it comes most closely to "perfection"? All that is left is for listeners to decide which recording(s)/performance(s)'s - with their various imperfections - they prefer to all the others. There can't be a "best", only a "favourite".

[Parry1912]

PS: Is Whiplash worth seeing? I've had divergent reports - one like, one dislike.

I thought it was an unrealistic, over-heated, over-rated melodrama.