HVK much the best conductor of Beethoven 8 ever (on record) - discuss ?

[Hornspieler]

Thrilled this afternoon listening to HVK and the Philharmonia in Beethoven 8 - the DG 1962 recording is pretty amazing too but this was something else after his sublime 1950s Eroica ( has the Eroica ever been so well served in a decade - the wonderful live 1952 Furtwangler , The Phil Karajan , The mono Klemperer and the two Erich Kleibers - especially the VPO ) .

I don't think anyone comes close to Karajan in this work - there is not only great drive but great charm . Nobody else makes one want to dance about in the unbuttoned than Karajan for me .

PS Heading should have said " on record "

No such thing as "best" in musical performance.

"Preferred" is a more appropriate word to express one' opinion.

HS

[pastoralguy]

No such thing as "best" in musical performance.

"Preferred" is a more appropriate word to express one' opinion.

HS

One of my favourite CDs is Itzhak Perlman playing Sinding's Suite for violin and orchestra. Even Perlman admitted that his version isn't as good as Mr. Jascha Heifetz's amazing performance. So, perhaps in this case, an argument could be made for a 'best' performance.

[LeMartinPecheur]

No such thing as "best" in musical performance.

Undoubtedly true when talking about the dozens/ hundreds of recordings of LvB's 8th.

But in a field of 3 recordings (or 3 performances, say on the same night in a conductors' competition) if everyone agrees that version A is vastly superior to the others, then surely it's 'the best'? Isn't that what the word means?

We don't have to be relativists all the time. Possibly...

[Dave2002]

...even if his infantile bullying behaviour is inexcusable.

I don't think he was the only one to have this character trait on occasions, and indeed I'm not sure that your statement is necessarily even justifiable.

The only stories I claim to know of about Toscanini are:

1. :Beecham's comment - "Italian bandmaster"
2. :Toscanini - "If it's a choice between coughing and dying, don't cough"
3. :A quite amusing story about a panettone exchange between Puccini and Toscanini.

There was also a suggestion that he kept something with him which is perhaps best not discussed in polite company.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But, as "the only stories you claim to know about Toscanini" amount to three(-ish) upon what grounds can you base your "not being sure" that my own knowledge is "necessarily even justifiable"?

Or do you mean that you know other Toscanini stories, but don't want to claim this in public?

[pastoralguy]

There's a story about a BBCSO trumpet player coming in incorrectly during a rehearsal causing him to be at the receiving end of the maestro's wrath. The trumpet player decides to wait on Toscanini at the end of the session to practice some of the language he had learned in the Navy. Toscanini exits and the trumpet player tells him EXACTLY what he thinks.
Toscanini dismisses him with a gesture saying 'It is a too late to apologise now!'

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It got very nasty on many occasions, some of it actually on record - I'd be interested to see anyone "necessarily even justify" such outbursts as these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e89cjFuxhwk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F1__ELBbXc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxh-o9ENW5o

... there's also a recording of a rehearsal of Falstaff where he just hurls abuse at the performers. For all his reputation as an anti-Fascist, his behaviour towards the Musicians in his orchestras - and the arbitrary habit of sacking them to warn the others - was psychopathic.

[Daniel]

Blimey, that seems so inimical to the idea of creating anything beautiful, even allowing for cultural norms having changed over time! The only Toscanini performance I can recall is the Prelude to Act 1 of Parsifal, heard many years ago, which was very beautiful and still fairly vivid I must admit.
The also pathological Herzog/Kinski relationship comes to mind, and that seemed to produce extraordinary results. It is a way of engendering intensity I suppose, but I'd have thought you must need to be a very particular kind of personality to bear fruit from such apparently dysfunctional behaviour. At least in the latter, the power balance seems rather more equal, and indeed the dysfunction bilateral.

[jayne lee wilson]

Forthcoming.... (probably not for me...)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01N0C4F28/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1483808675&sr=1-1&keywords=toscanini

....Mentioned in an excellent article on Toscanini in January's Gramophone (Richard Osborne).... set to be reviewed next month...

[Bryn]

Forthcoming.... (probably not for me...)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01N0C4F28/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1483808675&sr=1-1&keywords=toscanini

....Mentioned in an excellent article on Toscanini in January's Gramophone (Richard Osborne).... set to be reviewed next month...

Not for me thanks. I already have:



which cost me all of £76.61 in 2012. I see the price has risen a little in the interim.

[Dave2002]

But, as "the only stories you claim to know about Toscanini" amount to three(-ish) upon what grounds can you base your "not being sure" that my own knowledge is "necessarily even justifiable"?

Or do you mean that you know other Toscanini stories, but don't want to claim this in public?

You are making a claim - I think - that Toscanini was a bully. I think that's a strong claim to make at this point in history, unless it was generally acknowledged that he was. You may have more knowledge, but otherwise it may just be your opinion.

Of course a slippery legal person might point that I have no evidence that he wasn't a bully - which is true, but then some arguments put that way are just mad. Just because I have no evidence doesn't "prove" anything either way.

[Alison]

I'm struggling to recall any BaL's on Beethoven 8.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

You are making a claim - I think - that Toscanini was a bully.

You're not certain? Somebody makes the comment "infantile bullying behaviour" and you're not certain that they're "making a claim .... that Toscanini was a bully"? What would I have had to have written for you to get the point unambiguously?!

I think that's a strong claim to make at this point in history, unless it was generally acknowledged that he was. You may have more knowledge, but otherwise it may just be your opinion.

What do you call the youTube examples I linked to in #22? "Just my opinion"? "Locker Room banter"? For goodness' sake, Dave, get a grip, man! Toscanini's behaviour at rehearsals and after concerts is very well documented, and has been not just from "this point in history" but from the time he was behaving so. In this instance it is clear that I do "have more knowledge" - why do you wish to argue the toss on something you are ignorant of? What exactly are you trying to defend (or attack)?

Of course a slippery legal person might point that I have no evidence that he wasn't a bully - which is true, but then some arguments put that way are just mad. Just because I have no evidence doesn't "prove" anything either way.

Who has attempted to do this? And why should they wish to do so when the evidence clearly is against you already?

Honestly, Dave - sometimes ...

[cloughie]

BPO Jochum DG, VPO Abbado Decca, RPO Beecham CBSO Weller all up there!

[visualnickmos]

Prompted by this thread, I had a listen to the HvK LvB 8 in question, and - yes - all very fine. However, this is a symphony that (IMVHO) should bounce along athletically. I find in places in this recording, Herbert allows it to become a bit 'puddingy'

For me, I particularly like Abbado/VPO, Cluytens/Berlin PO, Weller/CBSO, Szell/Cleveland..... there are others, too.