HVK much the best conductor of Beethoven 8 ever (on record) - discuss ?

[Barbirollians]

Thrilled this afternoon listening to HVK and the Philharmonia in Beethoven 8 - the DG 1962 recording is pretty amazing too but this was something else after his sublime 1950s Eroica ( has the Eroica ever been so well served in a decade - the wonderful live 1952 Furtwangler , The Phil Karajan , The mono Klemperer and the two Erich Kleibers - especially the VPO ) .

I don't think anyone comes close to Karajan in this work - there is not only great drive but great charm . Nobody else makes one want to dance about in the unbuttoned than Karajan for me .

PS Heading should have said " on record "

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

PS Heading should have said " on record "

Duly amended.

[Barbirollians]

Cheers

[pastoralguy]

This 1962 disc is a recording where, for me, the Berlin Philharmoniker really go for it!

[Barbirollians]

This 1962 disc is a recording where, for me, the Berlin Philharmoniker really go for it!

I agree but somehow this afternoon it seemed that the Philharmonia were even more going for it !

[visualnickmos]

Difficult one, this.
What is the definition of "best?"
An impossible question, unless we accept that everyones' answers are all equally valid...

[Bryn]

Well he did not have access to either the Jonathan Del Mar or Clive Brown editions, so how could he have recorded the best Beethoven 8?

[LeMartinPecheur]

Difficult one, this.
What is the definition of "best?"
An impossible question, unless we accept that everyones' answers are all equally valid...

...and that adding the numbers up certainly proves who was right. Proper objective science - seemples!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Difficult one, this.
What is the definition of "best?"
An impossible question

There are dozens of superb recordings of this quite perfect work - none of them can give everything that the score contains, and each has its insights, charms and surprises. But of the "Big Band" recordings (the ones I find I play less frequently these days), it's Karajan who I still find gives me most - I have all three of his DG recordings, and they all have special insights (the Digital one eschews all idea that this is a "lighter" work than its predecessor, and is startling in its fire and drive. A pity the recorded sound makes this sound so aggressively "up front"! ). I still haven't treated myself to the Philharmonia set - it's still on "the list".

[jayne lee wilson]

Watch out, this one could go on as long as the Bruckner 3....

Off the top of this horribly dizzy head.... Scherchen, Zinman and Gardiner 2 - despite RO's finding the latter wanting against Beecham's assumption of it as a "comic masterpiece"...

[Dave2002]

I'll throw in a mention of Toscanini for Beethoven 8, but many might find it too hard driven.

[BBMmk2]

HvK's 1962 cycle with the 8th is the best. Unfortunately, with the 6, iirc, the recap is not played?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'll throw in a mention of Toscanini for Beethoven 8, but many might find it too hard driven.

As with the Karajan, the recorded sound on the last recording is (/was - I haven't heard recent remasterings) unpleasantly fierce. I love the way in the '30s recording he adds a set of tuned Timpani to bring out the return of the First Group melody at the start of the Recap!!

[Dave2002]

I agree that many of Toscanini's recordings don't sound nice - but with some of them one can kind of "listen through" and hear what he was aiming at. Perhaps his concerts really were very good - certainly his reputation would seem to suggest that some at least were outstanding.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I agree that many of Toscanini's recordings don't sound nice - but with some of them one can kind of "listen through" and hear what he was aiming at.

- as I think is true also of the original releases of the Digital Karajan recordings.

Perhaps his concerts really were very good - certainly his reputation would seem to suggest that some at least were outstanding.

Well, it has been suggested* that the "reputation" was manipulated by a significant amount of PR, but there's no doubting that Toscanini was an important Musician, and hugely significant, even if his infantile bullying behaviour is inexcusable. The recordings he made with the NYPO and the BBCSO reveal "warmer" - and, I think, better - readings of works than the later Studio 8h recordings of Live, broadcast performances.

But this dry, "tight" clarity of sound was what he was "aiming at" - he believed in a sort of antiseptic sound that would take the sound of the Music straight to the listener without the "distractions" of a Concert Hall acoustic.




* = most prominently in Joseph Horowitz' Understanding Toscanini, a partisan view of the conductor, but also a fascinating insight into Artistic politics and the marketing of the Arts in the US and beyond in the 20th Century - well worth a penny plus P&P of anybody's money:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Understanding-Toscanini-Joseph-Horowitz/dp/0571171478