A Messiah to send Hippites rushing for the smelling salts ?

[ahinton]

I wonder if "Echo Flutes" are at all related to "Pan Pipes"?

Oh, dear; it's going to be back to that Squander the PanPiper again any minute now!

[vinteuil]

... what other factors might you see as accounting in some way for those changes in 19th century piano design and manufacture ?

... my impression after reading Rosamond Harding's book was that there was enormous competition between the rival makers, adding extra bells and whistles (sometimes literally) in order to attract custom. I think an analogy might be with car makers over the last century : the manufacturers keep adding things in the hope of making their wares more likely to sell.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/090541831X

[ahinton]

... my impression after reading Rosamond Harding's book was that there was enormous competition between the rival makers, adding extra bells and whistles (sometimes literally) in order to attract custom. I think an analogy might be with car makers over the last century : the manufacturers keep adding things in the hope of making their wares more likely to sell.

Well, there is that factor, of course, but one might still wonder why so much of it happened at that point in the mid-19th century rather than earlier and, for that matter, why comparatively little of it's happened since whereas it's never really stopped in car manufacture.

[Richard Barrett]

the manufacturers keep adding things in the hope of making their wares more likely to sell.

Indeed. Even "great composers" and their priorities are fairly insignificant next to increased profits. The idea that instrument makers were (or are) selfless devotees of compositorial preferences is quaint to say the least.

[Nimrod]

That is a bit of surprise as both Amazon and Presto are advertising it .

Thanks for the tip off as to where one might buy this, but I see on the Presto site that it's not due for release until November 18th.

[doversoul1]

Well, there is that factor, of course, but one might still wonder why so much of it happened at that point in the mid-19th century rather than earlier and, for that matter, why comparatively little of it's happened since whereas it's never really stopped in car manufacture.

My history is vague to put it mildly but wasn’t it around this time when what is now know as the Middle Class started to establish? As far as I remember, those were the people who were very keen on Investing in Culture, and public concerts were a very good place to establish their social distinction. And a new marker made for piano manufacturers. Or something to that effect.

[ahinton]

Indeed. Even "great composers" and their priorities are fairly insignificant next to increased profits. The idea that instrument makers were (or are) selfless devotees of compositorial preferences is quaint to say the least.

Arguably so - except that (a) even this might not have been the sole driver of all of what happened and (b) to the extent that it might have been thought to do so it was nothing new then any more than it's been ever since or is ever likely to become.

[ahinton]

My history is vague to put it mildly but wasn’t it around this time when what is now know as the Middle Class started to establish? As far as I remember, those were the people who were very keen on Investing in Culture, and public concerts were a very good place to establish their social distinction. And a new marker made for piano manufacturers. Or something to that effect.

OK, but to what extent might you ascribe the rise of that so-called class to the composers whom I mentioned and, as a corollary thereto, assert that this is why they began to write as they did, perhaps to encourage instrument designers and manufacturers to start to up the ante in internecine capitalist competition? Somehow, I cannot quite see Liszt's Sonata, studies and Hungarian Rhapsodies, Alkan's studies and Chopin's Scherzi and Ballades as an essential constituent of such a cynical and deliberate ploy...

[doversoul1]

OK, but to what extent might you ascribe the rise of that so-called class to the composers whom I mentioned and, as a corollary thereto, assert that this is why they began to write as they did, perhaps to encourage instrument designers and manufacturers to start to up the ante in internecine capitalist competition? Somehow, I cannot quite see Liszt's Sonata, studies and Hungarian Rhapsodies, Alkan's studies and Chopin's Scherzi and Ballades as an essential constituent of such a cynical and deliberate ploy...

Again, this is a complete guess, so do ignore it if you think it nonsense.

Perhaps with an exception of Hildegard of Bingen, most composers in history (more so in modern time I guess) composed for their livelihood. They couldn’t have been completely unconcerned with or indifferent to the social trend.

[ahinton]

Again, this is a complete guess, so do ignore it if you think it nonsense.

Perhaps with an exception of Hildegard of Bingen, most composers in history (more so in modern time I guess) composed for their livelihood. They couldn’t have been completely unconcerned with or indifferent to the social trend.

I don't doubt that, but there's a material difference between being concerned about whatever social trend might have pertained in the life of any particular composer and that composer's willingness to and courage in bucking it to the extent that their internal motivation might encourage them to do so in order not to compromise their inspiration and expressive desires; running those alongside the social persuasions, expectationsm mores et al of the time has often presented a problem to a numner of artists including composers - so not "nonsense" at all...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I can't speak for Tchaikovsky, but everyone makes mistakes sometimes - when I was working as a copyist for Peter Maxwell Davies I had to call him up and ask what to do about a low B flat in the violas...

You can retune a viola, but not a flute (not my that much).

[ahinton]

You can retune a viola, but not a flute (not my that much).

Is that a viola joke? Just curious!...

[Richard Barrett]

You can retune a viola, but not a flute (not my that much).

In the case I mention it was a simple mistake and nothing to do with retuning; Max asked me to sort it out which was a simple matter (of transferring the offending pitches to the cellos IIRC). Are you suggesting that Tchaikovsky really wanted there to be a C flute with a low B flat? And once more what are the nonexistent instruments Bach wrote for?

[Richard Barrett]

My history is vague to put it mildly but wasn’t it around this time when what is now know as the Middle Class started to establish?

Another factor here is the spread of industrial production techniques. Of course, since the advent of recording fewer people have the piano at the centre of their musical involvement; but the competition-driven development mentioned by Vinteuil continues apace, its epicentre having shifted from mechanical instruments to electronic/digital ones - not only does it continue but it's almost impossible to keep up with!

[Dave2002]

Are there not four significant factors in the developments of instruments and music?

These are:

Composers
Instruments and instrument makers
Performers who play on instruments
Audience/listeners

It is the interrelationships between these which drive change and "industry".

If a change in technology or fashion alters the balance between the factors, then this may initiate "progress".
For example, Mozart is known to have preferred the keyboard instruments made by some makers to others.
Perhaps there was even some form of dialogue between instrument makers and composers, or maybe between instrument makers and performers. This in turn could have to changes, maybe some small but others perhaps more significant.

In Bach's time harpsichords were still one of the predominant keyboards instruments, but they would have been quite difficult to make, requiring a lot of craftmanship and technical expertise. Also, tuning and other factors are problematic. As the fortepiano and piano developed, some advantages of the new types of instrument would have been noted, though initially production methods would still have relied on craft workers.

Each of the actors in the whole music/musical instrument business would probably be trying to gain some form of advantage, which might have become more significant in a competitive market. A violinist who used "brand A" violins might discover that those violins were in some ways more reliable, so he (probably was a he ...) so would tend to prefer thos violins as they would give him fewer problems, and he might be more consistently employed. On the other hand, another violinist might discover that "brand B" violins had a smoother tone, while yet another violin might have a louder tone. These factors would affect the way performers adopted instruments, including their interactions with their audiences, and that could affect their reputation and employability.

Gradually also forms of branding and promotion would emerge. "VIrtuoso X plays on brand Y instruments ...."

More efficient mass production techniques which emerged and were developed over the last two centuries would also have had some impact.
Mention has been made of pianos and the apparent rise of the middle classes. Such techniques sould enable many more people to use instruments than would have been able to previously.In the nineteenth century this could have encouraged amateur musicians, and this would have continued through to the twentieth century, but then the development of devices and systems for providing music "on demand" very likely reduced the proportion of people who wanted to learn instruments. Initially devices such as player pianos could satisfy demand, then radios and gramophones etc., so many people nowadays do not play any instrument, though whether this is significant as a proportion of the total population I don't know. Probably in earlier times there weren't too many performers either, as most people were too busy trying to survive in other ways, and music wasn't such an essential part of their lives.

However, by the end of the 20th and beginning of the 21st century, we have probably seen the effects of saturated markets and fashion in different ways.

Worldwide we are seeing production systems which are capable of giving everyone on the planet (and there are more of them than a century or two ago) some devices at low costs, to the extent that the makers who are perhaps significantly profit driven, will notice drops in profitability, and will "require" new or variant products to make in order to continue. Fashion has probably always played a part in the commercial side of things, but now it is very significant. Think iPhones and other similar items.