Do you enjoy older or old recordings?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have just noticed umslopogas's (is that how I apostrophise it?, or s' ?)

Either - as in "Sibelius' Symphonies" and "Sibelius's Symphonies", or "Brahms' piano works" and "Brahms's piano works" (as to be hopes it did, of course ).

On Topic - it isn't just "HiFi buffs" who don't have a good word for artificially-enhanced Stereo; even as a fully-clothed teenager with a cheap mono record player, I could tell the sound was terrible! (I've mentioned elsewhere how I didn't listen to Clemens Krauss' - or "Krauss's" - Strauss recordings for decades after experiencing one of those fake stereo versions.)

[umslopogaas]

Thanks to all for the information on Decca Eclipse. I didnt know some were reissues of SXL stereo discs: those would have been real stereo. I think the fake stereos were reissues of mono LXT discs, hence the need to create an artificial stereo effect.

Being reissues the Eclipse discs are of little interest to collectors, except, I believe for one, which was only ever issued on Eclipse. I think - dont quote me - it was a recording of the Prokofiev violin concertos by Ricci.

At one time I had quite a lot of Eclipse recordings, because in the late 1970s and early 1980s I was working in Rabaul, in Papua New Guinea and they were the only classical discs stocked by the local store.

[Alain Maréchal]

Either - as in "Sibelius' Symphonies" and "Sibelius's Symphonies", or "Brahms' piano works" and "Brahms's piano works" (as to be hopes it did, of course ).

On Topic - it isn't just "HiFi buffs" who don't have a good word for artificially-enhanced Stereo; even as a fully-clothed teenager with a cheap mono record player, I could tell the sound was terrible! (I've mentioned elsewhere how I didn't listen to Clemens Krauss' - or "Krauss's" - Strauss recordings for decades after experiencing one of those fake stereo versions.)

Can I assume that "Krauss' " and "Krauss's" are pronounced similarly, with a "sis" at the end of each? They would be Krauss's Strausses, then. I could listen to the BBC attentively but may have to wait a long time for an example to be used.

If you were listening to fake stereo on a mono player, that may have compounded the problem. (Presumably when you were a less than fully-clothed teenager you had little time for listening to records.) A pity you were deterred - I prefer Krauss's (or Krauss') 'Aus Italien' (on ACL) to all others.

[Dave2002]

You always thought correctly, if your set was the Eclipse ECS LPs, which were issued in real stereo. Since some Eclipse issues were in fake stereo many collectors probably assumed these were.

Alain
Thanks for the clarification. Indeed that is the set I have, and I never thought they were fake, though I was aware of some "fake" stereo recordings from various companies - which indeed did not sound particularly good.

Looking back on this, if the first LPs were issued before 1958 it is unlikely that there would have been a market in the UK for stereo, hence the original mono version, but perhaps Decca had already decided to start recording some performance in stereo, as by then several American companies were already doing. Maybe someone somewhere will know, and have details of the set up, and the equipment used. There might be photographs which could give clues.

The article from Andrew Rose also makes reference to real stereo recordings, and the Pristine remastering also includes some "fake" (Ambient Stereo) sections (from American sources?) to give extra authenticity with the pre performance fanfares.

Also, the notes from the Pristine CD (https://www.pristineclassical.com/Covers/PACO062.pdf) point out that Keilberth made the first stereo recording of the Ring in 1955, so stereo was definitely coming in - though how it was achieved then and by which companies is perhaps less certain. I think we do know quite a lot about the American recordings, such as the RCA Living Stereo series, and the Mercury Living Presence recordings, and perhaps also some Everest recordings, from the early days of stereo.

Some companies must have made multi-channel recordings and then decided to release them later as stereo (or not) when the market began to be established. Some, perhaps thinking ahead, may have done multi-channel recordings for the quadrophonic era, or they may have just done multi-track for later mixing down to mono or stereo, and then discovered that some could be remixed for quad - perhaps more or less successfully.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Can I assume that "Krauss' " and "Krauss's" are pronounced similarly, with a "sis" at the end of each? They would be Krauss's Strausses, then.

Yes'.

If you were listening to fake stereo on a mono player, that may have compounded the problem. (Presumably when you were a less than fully-clothed teenager you had little time for listening to records.) A pity you were deterred - I prefer Krauss's (or Krauss') 'Aus Italien' (on ACL) to all others.

Oh, I'm making up for lost time these days!

(By the way, do you think that Krauss' Die Fledermaus is Die Fledermaus' finest recording?)

[HighlandDougie]

Being reissues the Eclipse discs are of little interest to collectors, except, I believe for one, which was only ever issued on Eclipse. I think - dont quote me - it was a recording of the Prokofiev violin concertos by Ricci.

Wearing my record collectors anorak, yeah but no but ... the Ricci Prokofiev was, as Umslopogaas says, never released in the UK at the time (1958) as anything other than a mono LP (LXT 5446), with the stereo having to wait until later (ECS 704). However, it was released in the USA in stereo in 1958 as CS 6059. If you happen to have a copy, either of that or of the Eclipse stereo release, it's much sought-after by collectors - £75.00 at the moment on one site for ECS 704 (or it can be obtained quite cheaply as a CD in the Universal Italy 'Ansermet in Russian Music' box - and very good it is, too).

[umslopogaas]

Thanks HighlandDougie, that's a pity: I'm fairly sure I once had that Prokofiev record on Eclipse, but got rid of all my Eclipse discs, not knowing any of them to be valuable. On vinyl, I have Sivo, Stern, Chung, Szigeti, Oistrakh and Friedman. I collect vinyl, but dont think I want to pay £75, so maybe I'll just get the CD.

My 2006 Rare Record Price Guide suggests £65 for LXT 5446, probably even more now.

[cloughie]

Wearing my record collectors anorak, yeah but no but ... the Ricci Prokofiev was, as Umslopogaas says, never released in the UK at the time (1958) as anything other than a mono LP (LXT 5446), with the stereo having to wait until later (ECS 704). However, it was released in the USA in stereo in 1958 as CS 6059. If you happen to have a copy, either of that or of the Eclipse stereo release, it's much sought-after by collectors - £75.00 at the moment on one site for ECS 704 (or it can be obtained quite cheaply as a CD in the Universal Italy 'Ansermet in Russian Music' box - and very good it is, too).

Also available on Australian Eloquence coupled with the Katchen PC3 - Presto £7.75.

[Alain Maréchal]

(By the way, do you think that Krauss' Die Fledermaus is Die Fledermaus' finest recording?)

Oh dear, I wonder if we have been writing about cross porpoises. I had assumed that the reference to "Krauss's Strauss" referred to Richard rather than Johann. About Die Fledermaus, like Dr. Winkle ("Vinkel!"), "I haf no opinion":

Johann Strauss wrote Die Fledermaus,
Richard wrote properer opera.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Oh dear, I wonder if we have been writing about cross porpoises. I had assumed that the reference to "Krauss's Strauss" referred to Richard rather than Johann. About Die Fledermaus, like Dr. Winkle ("Vinkel!"), "I haf no opinion":

Johann Strauss wrote Die Fledermaus,
Richard wrote properer opera.

'Twas the properer chap to whose fake stereo recordings I originally referred, Alain - my apologies for having got sidetracked by all the "ausses" in between!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... as opposed to the Eloquence releases, which are the Aussies in between.

[cloughie]

Oh dear, I wonder if we have been writing about cross porpoises. I had assumed that the reference to "Krauss's Strauss" referred to Richard rather than Johann. About Die Fledermaus, like Dr. Winkle ("Vinkel!"), "I haf no opinion":

Johann Strauss wrote Die Fledermaus,
Richard wrote properer opera.

Maybe properer but he didn't half choose his bloody plots - Elektra and Salome!!!!!

His waltzes weren't bad either!

[Dave2002]

It just so happens that the sample track of Keilberth's Flying Dutchman includes the stomping on the stage. This should show up much more on speakers with an extended bass response.

https://www.pristineclassical.com/paco062.html

The first patch is about two minutes in, then there's another around nine minutes in. There's a spot of distortion around 8:50 minutes from the start of the sample.
I suspect that if my LPs are still playable I could get better sound - though at a cost -perhaps a complete new playback system for vinyl - which could cost £thousands!

I really don't know whether it would be worth paying for the 24 bit FLAC - but I do recommend the performance. The excerpt reminded me of how much I used to enjoy this one.

[Alain Maréchal]

I suspect that if my LPs are still playable I could get better sound - though at a cost -perhaps a complete new playback system for vinyl - which could cost £thousands!

I think less - if you have an amplifier then a good quality turntable should not cost that much. LPs are more resilient than is commonly supposed; many of mine have moved house several times, and some which recently survived a collapse of storage are unscathed, although the sleeves are not.

I am a dilettante compared with some of our co-boarders, just wait until they surface with advice.

[mikealdren]

I have both the Regis and Brilliant but I've never compared them. I'll listen tomorrow (I'm away from home this weekend) and report back. They've also been reissued on Phillips but I haven't heard them.
Mike

Took me longer than intended as the Regis wasn't on my computer system. The recordings are quite different. The Regis recording is smooth but rather dull - over processed? However it is sweet and easy to listen to. Brilliant is more immediate and also more resonant, a slightly harder edge. I'm now interested to hear the UMG recording (originally Philips now Decca) which gets mixed reviews on Amazon.

I also have the LP of the first two sonatas but it's up in the attic somewhere - not sure I can locate it easily!

Mike