Do you enjoy older or old recordings?

[Dave2002]

There are so many old and by modern technical standards poor recordings that I love, that for me at least the recording is of secondary importance, its the music and performance that counts. As with many of my generation listening to music on MW radio perhaps trained the ear to listen past the whistles and fadings and to forgive more easily the shortcomings of earlier recordings. This is not to say that I am in any sense anti-digital or think that everything was better then but I find that some old recordings have never been bettered imv and their sonic shortcomings don't matter to me eg from the 1930's, Beecham/LPO Lemminkainens Return, Bruno Walter/VPO/ Mahler 9, Toscanini/ NBCSO Beethoven 7, Eva Turner singing In Questa Reggia etc etc.

Maybe it's nostalgia, and "rose tinted ears", but I always thought Bruno Walter's version of Mozart's Eine Kleine Nachtmusik with the VPO on 78s beat almost all other versions, though I think Andrew Manze did a recording a few years ago which had more modern sound and got close.

I wonder if the 78s are still available - the ones I had access to didn't come my way, though I discovered some other 78s which did.

[pastoralguy]

Serendipity at play again! I'm still reeling from sheer pleasure after listening to the first two CD's in a four CD set from Somm; Elgar Remastered by Lani Spahr; test pressings from Elgar's private library with STEREO reconstructions and new performances of the Cello Concerto and Symphony No 1. Took an hour to absorb the 28 page set of liner notes as I'm no techie but have always valued the EMI Elgar Edition which also amazed me at the first hearing in 1992. A bit of a hiccup on reading about the 'stereo transitions' as a I recall the disappointment at earlier attempts on CD when introduced in the early 80s. The 1919 and 1928 recordings of the Cello Concerto are both provided on CD1/2 in stereo. The liner notes start, "...So, again, what do we have here? Can we realistically use the word 'stereo' snce the word had no meaning in 1928 and if two microphones and cutters were used (I say 'if' because there is plenty of doubt, which we shall see later in this essay) they certainly would not have been placed in any standard 'stereo' configuration as we know it today." Listening to both performances, Beatrice Harrison, cello, - there is also a private disc which includes the Adagio from the Cello Concerto with Harrison and HRH Princess Victoria, piano! To my ears, the microphonic configuration of both recordings produces a shimmering fidelity. Shaking my head with hand over my mouth at the sheer wonder of it all. The fillers on CD1, include The Kingdom Prelude, in stereo and mono, ditto Cockaigne, and a choral arr of O God our help in ages past.

CD 2, includes the Cello Concerto, 1928 rec, previously unissued alternative takes in stereo and mono. CD3 Sym 1, complete, mono, with alternative takes; CD 4, mono unissued alt takes - Caractacus, Dream Children, Rosemary, Serenade Lyrique, Severn Suite - Tournament, Mazurka, Wand of Youth Suite, Nos 1 & 2, It comes from the misty ages from The Banner of St George, and concludes with God Save the King.

I need to think on about the technicalities and will return to the liner notes for guidance but much enjoyed the anecdotes about the composer: "Beatrice Harrison relates the composer's mood before the 1928 recording: 'I remember he was very gay, and he told me it didn't really matter what happened to the orchestra as all the faults could be put onto the soloist! How we laughed (at least I did not laugh as much as he did!). The composer was heard saying to her,'Give it to 'em, Beatrice, give it 'em. Don't mind about the notes or anything. Give 'em the spirit.'

I'm waiting for my set to arrive from Presto! I have the 3 EMI box sets in their original publications AND a
I'm on two and a half weeks holiday from Friday so there will be a lot of Elgar comparisons going on at PG towers between Festival concerts.

[visualnickmos]

I hate the modern technique of bunging in lots of microphones and remixing the result afterwards. The confusion of phase information in these mixes creates a solid wall perspective that fails to convey a genuine feeling of the acoustic in which the performers play. Unfortunately we are unlikely to get much improvement as today's methods use less session time and costs are high.

Absolutely with you, on this point.

[jayne lee wilson]

I absolutely agree with you. Interestingly, when CD first appeared there was a very real fear that recordings from the archive would simply disappear, to be replaced by digital issues. In fact it was the opposite that occurred and we now have access to an enormous wealth of historic performances, often beautifully remastered. I've surprised myself at the number of older recordings that are in my collection. I would go further and say that by the time that stereo came along sound quality was often as fine as any modern issues.


I hate the modern technique of bunging in lots of microphones and remixing the result afterwards. The confusion of phase information in these mixes creates a solid wall perspective that fails to convey a genuine feeling of the acoustic in which the performers play. Unfortunately we are unlikely to get much improvement as today's methods use less session time and costs are high.

Yes, you keep saying that ff, but WHICH new or at least recent releases have these multi-mic faults, can you give us a few examples? As i often say, I don't hear too many duds in the hi-res downloads or CDs I buy, usually orchestral across a wide repertoire, often several each month.... that recent Suzuki/Stravinsky album on BIS could scarcely be improved upon surely? And the Da Capo Norgard Symphonies have space-and-to-spare...

Surely you know the avowed purist philosophies of BIS, CPO, Da Capo, MDG, Ondine.... so who exactly are you finding so much fault with?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes, you keep saying that ff, but WHICH new or at least recent releases have these multi-mic faults, can you give us a few examples? As i often say, I don't hear too many duds in the hi-res downloads or CDs I buy, usually orchestral across a wide repertoire, often several each month.... that recent Suzuki/Stravinsky album on BIS could scarcely be improved upon surely? And the Da Capo Norgard Symphonies have space-and-to-spare...

There's no consistency here. Decca Phase 4 in the 1960s and 70s was the Darth Vader of multi-miking. Although this was a deliberately crass label, it encouraged other companies to do likewise. In my many reviews of Strauss's Alpine Symphony, I've come across so many versions that zoom in on the string quartet. It's as tasteless as it is unnecessary.

[jayne lee wilson]

There's no consistency here. Decca Phase 4 in the 1960s and 70s was the Darth Vader of multi-miking. Although this was a deliberately crass label, it encouraged other companies to do likewise. In my many reviews of Strauss's Alpine Symphony, I've come across so many versions that zoom in on the string quartet. It's as tasteless as it is unnecessary.

That's no response to my own comment, and I simply don't understand what you mean by "there's no consistency here"..

[gurnemanz]

I love listening to older recordings of lieder and songs, of which I have very many. Latest acquisition last week second hand on Amazon is the classic Maggie Teyte EMI References of Mélodies françaises, mostly with Gerald Moore and all recorded around seventy years ago. A very generous twofer of exquisite performances in excellent sound. Destined to become favourite discs.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

That's no response to my own comment, and I simply don't understand what you mean by "there's no consistency here"..

Sorry, Jayne. I was meaning that multi-miking isn't a new thing, which is why I cited Decca Phase 4. So the practice isn't a modern one. Problem recordings are smattered over the decades. I should have mentioned 70s & 80s DG recordings too, where close microphones resulted in many oppressive recordings that ruined some fine performances from Karajan, Bernstein and Abbado.

[jayne lee wilson]

Sorry, Jayne. I was meaning that multi-miking isn't a new thing, which is why I cited Decca Phase 4. So the practice isn't a modern one. Problem recordings are smattered over the decades. I should have mentioned 70s & 80s DG recordings too, where close microphones resulted in many oppressive recordings that ruined some fine performances from Karajan, Bernstein and Abbado.

Yeah Ok alps, thanks, that's much clearer.... ferret said it was about "modern technique", which doesn't seem (or sound) to me to be the case at all, but...well, there you go.

[Dave2002]

Yeah Ok alps, thanks, that's much clearer.... ferret said it was about "modern technique", which doesn't seem (or sound) to me to be the case at all, but...well, there you go.

Presumably the availability of much cheaper modern equipment has led to greater use of techniques such as multi-miking. I used to go to BBC recordings at Maida Vale and a few other locations quite a lot, and around 15 years ago ther might have been 3-10 microphones visible. The last few times I went, I counted up to around 30.

Regarding the phasing of multi-mike systems, I don't know how much of an issue it really is, but I have seen old books which show that even in the relatively early days of stereo, that some engineers were aware of phasing issues, and there were procedures for reducing problems related to phase and for setting up microphones appropriately. With the development of digital mutli track recorders, rather than sort things out "at the time", some factors can be deferred to post production. Relative phase and amplitude can be adjusted for each track later, rather than earlier, but this doesn't necessarily make things better, and might create more work for later.

Didn't some DG recordings expose this approach, where some DG CDs were apparently remastered - hopefully from original sources - with a claimed more careful analysis of the signal paths (and consequent delays) leading to, it was claimed, better results for listeners?
That would only work well if all the individual original tracks were retained, and minimal mixing between tracks had taken place.

[jayne lee wilson]

If you want a reference-class modern recording, look no further than the new Minnesota/Vanska Sibelius 3/6/7 on BIS. Just been listening to the 24/96 download (WAVs, JRiver), and it's the epitome of 3D spaciousness and precision, effortless power and transparency. The 7th can often seem texturally or contrapuntally dense, but there's not a trace of that here, and the 6th has an almost Mozartian levity and elegance, but with a guttier attack in the finale. Extraordinary string sound. Miraculous, left me dizzy with pleasure.

Surely, it doesn't much matter what your mic set-up is if you get results like that.
(It's not what you do, it's..).
If you offer critiques of newer v older recordings, I feel you have to work from specifics, like Gramophone did in Sounds in Retrospect.

Must say though, I hardly ever seem to buy anything now from the "old majors" like DG or Decca. The hot & cool action is with the aforementioned BIS, Ondine, Da Capo etc...
The so-miscalled smaller labels rule, OK...!

(Having said which... there's not too much wrong with those last late Hanoncourt Beethoven releases on Sony either...)

[Alain Maréchal]

If you want a reference-class modern recording

Sorry Jayne, but only if it is also a reference-class modern performance. Is it? Should I add it to all the recordings I already have?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Whatever happened to the Decca "tree"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decca_tree

[Lordgeous]

I'm also awaiting delivery of the recently released 'Elgar Remastered' set on Somm which consists of discs that were owned by Elgar himself. These include alternative takes of the violin and 'cello concertos so it's very interesting stuff. However, whereas most transfers are made from the best available materials, Elgar was notorious for not taking the best care of his shellac so whilst I'm very keen to hear them, I do hope the variability of the discs affects the music. And, of course, I'll be comparing them with the EMI release copies.

An interesting problem to have!

Got them yesterday. fascinating musically and remarkable 'stereo", though Ive only listened to disc 1. A labour of love!

[jayne lee wilson]

Sorry Jayne, but only if it is also a reference-class modern performance. Is it? Should I add it to all the recordings I already have?

Yes absolutely Alain, no doubts about it at all...! The way Vanska increases tension and excitement in the 6th's finale, but without any loss of articulation or control, is remarkable. It's about a minute slower than his Lahti recording in this movement, but the difference is one of sheer poised weight and beauty of tone, not just the evident gains in clarity - the musical meaning is enriched in a movement which can often seem to gabble repetitively. Just comparing the two at the start of the finale now, the expressive gains, in range and subtlety, over that much-praised earlier 6th are obvious straight away; and the dynamic subtlety (quicksilver, sudden shifts in level) adds a great deal too. It's as if Vanska has rethought every phrase and paragraph.

The new 7th takes clarity of argument, (e.g. the contrast in the scherzo sections), to a new level for me, and those trombones have wonderful weight and texture. The 7th seems one of those pieces best not "interpreted" too much and the intensity here seems to grow essentially from that transparency and firmness of phrase, sureness of tempi choices.

I haven't heard the 3rd yet, but I can't imagine I'll be disappointed, or anyone being disappointed in this release.