Karajan's 1980s Digital Beethoven Cycle on DG

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/583cc5c3cd...don-ak2xh5.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...son_Statue.jpg

There are statues of Shaw (and Berlioz?), too - but I don't think either man is is being enstatuated for his work as a critic?

[Barbirollians]

I have many Beethoven cycles, but have only had 1 Karajan complete, the 1963. I purchased these as used lps about 5 years ago. They were in less than pristine shape but I worked through them, fascinated. Having now sold off my turntable and disposed of my lps, they are gone and though I enjoyed them I don't forsee myself replacing them with digital copies.
When I began listening to music in the mid 70s, many critics here were scornful of von K. The term "Chocolate Beethoven" was used quite a bit, and while von Ks sixties cycle sold well here it never had the critical respect that it had elsewhere. My first cycle was Szell (which sounds absolutely stunning in it's new remastering), then Solti, and then I concentrated on individual versions of the Symphonies and didn't add another complete set for probably 20 years (now my shelves runneth over). I was also influenced by my ethnic background, having many Holocaust Survivors in my family. The Jews of my Parents generation were utterly dismissive of von K and like many Americans, in the throes of adulation to Toscanini, whose Anti Fascist credentials were impeccable.
It was von Ks Sibelius that won me over a few years later, and I still think he may have been unmatchable in that repertoire. I then began buying his records but somehow not his Beethoven, as the "chocolate Beethoven" remark seemed to stick. I also noted that many American Critics that blasted his 1960s cycle suddenly seemed to find a new appreciation for it when the 70s cycle appeared, unfavorably comparing the latter with the former. Then in what seemed the blink of an eye another Beethoven cycle appeared in the 80s, seemingly a cynical attempt to capitalize on the novelty of digital recording techniques, and my initial antipathy to von Ks Beethoven was strengthened.
So when i setled for a listen to his mid 60s cycle, finally with all that baggage somewhere in the periphery for me, I was very pleasantly surprised at how thrilling it was, and how it must have seemed to contemporary listeners in the early 60s, when complete sets were still a rare beast, and I began to understand the love for von K that many possess for the first time.
I've only heard smatterings of the later two cycles. I have the 9th from the 70s on a Blu Ray Audio disc, and the digital 6th as an itunes download. They are excellent and though I have struggled to find fault with them in truth I cannot. So I can't advise people on the relative merits of the different cycles, but only offer the above as a cautionary tale on how prejudices can influence our (or at least my) Artistic taste

As time passes his recordings may just come to be judged more on their merits and away from the person . That said I still struggle with his DG Mozart , his Schubert recordings and most of all those extraordinarily well played but glacial Mahler recordings .

[vinteuil]

There are statues of Shaw (and Berlioz?), too - but I don't think either man is is being enstatuated for his work as a critic?

... very well. What about Sainte-Beuve?

http://www.eutouring.com/statues_in_paris_m15_DSC05402_lrg.jpg

.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-Augustin_Sainte-Beuve

[Beef Oven!]

As time passes his recordings may just come to be judged more on their merits and away from the person . That said I still struggle with his DG Mozart , his Schubert recordings and most of all those extraordinarily well played but glacial Mahler recordings .

IMV, Karajan’s Mahler is anything but glacial; either in terms of tempo or emotional warmth (which seem to me to be the only two ways ‘glacial' can be meant in this context). His Mahler 6 being a case in point. A warm, tender, ravishing take on the slow movement that only heightens the impact on the emotionally devastating movement that follows. A first class performance and recording (especially for anyone (not me) that has a Japanese remaster).

For many, his Mahler 9 is peerless.

His Mahler 4 has the BPO playing sublimely with a warm shimmering glow and perfect tempo, and Edith Mathis is simply wonderful in the finale, IMV. Along with Szell’s Cleveland recording of 4, this was the recording that confirmed my love of this symphony many years ago.

His Mahler 5 is also a very worthy recording.

It is indeed a pity that Karajan didn’t record more Mahler - he seems to have come to Mahler late, so that may have something to do with it.

[HighlandDougie]

I thought the remaster of the Alpensinf was much improved.

Somewhat strangely, it was not "Blu-Rayed" and included with the other HvK Strauss/BPO/VPO tone poems in that format in DG's 2014 "Karajan/Strauss" LP-sized book but I can certainly vouch for the fact that the re-mastered CD is audibly superior to the original issue. Indeed, apart from a bit of congestion at some climaxes (characteristic of the recording venue) it sounds pretty good to me - and the orchestral playing is peerless. Although everything else in the box has been re-remastered, the Alpensinfonie will, I'm sure, be the same as in the Karajan Gold issue. I'm no great fan of Strauss tone poems and - apologies, Beefy - no great fan of HvK's performances of, say, Bruckner or Brahms but he is the one conductor who somehow convinces me that they are all great pieces of music.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... very well. What about Sainte-Beuve?

Is a "bust" the same as a "statue"? (In other words, can/does one "erect" a bust?)

[vinteuil]

... it's a monument. Will that do?

http://www.eutouring.com/images_paris_statues_285.html

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I thought the remaster of the Alpensinf was much improved.

Improved, yes, but still very poor for a 1980 recording. The violins remain oppressive and the off-stage band is glaringly close.

No, if you want Karajan's Alpine Symphony, buy the DVD.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Sony/88697232229

Otherwise, buy Kempe, Thielemann, Zinman, Stein, Previn, Ozawa, Shipway. . .

[HighlandDougie]

Improved, yes, but still very poor for a 1980 recording. The violins remain oppressive and the off-stage band is glaringly close.

I've just listened to it (the CD from the 2014 set) and those faults don't come across at all to my ears, although I freely admit that they are not tuned to the nuances of the work, unlike EA's. The shortcomings of the Philharmonie as a recording venue are apparent in some congestion but it otherwise sounds pretty impressive to my ears. Maybe it depends on ones equipment? Whatever, I'm tempted by that DVD .....

[Ferretfancy]

Is a "bust" the same as a "statue"? (In other words, can/does one "erect" a bust?)

A guest talking to Sam Goldwyn - " Mr Goldwyn, your wife has beautiful hands "

Goldwyn -- "Yes, I'm having a bust made of them "

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A guest talking to Sam Goldwyn - " Mr Goldwyn, your wife has beautiful hands "
Goldwyn -- "Yes, I'm having a bust made of them "

[Barbirollians]

I see RO said in Gramophone to try the coupling of 5 and 6 first - one can on Amazon for 1p .

[mathias broucek]

Nice to see such a balanced discussion

IMHO the anti-Karajan reaction following his death was a(n over-) reaction to some of the rather OTT marketing of his work

It's hard to listen to him at his best (1962 Eroica, Honneger 3, Testament Brahms 1, most of his Bruckner, 1960s Sibelius). Even some of his less well-regarded material has merits, even if a long way from a "library" choice (e.g. I have 50% of his recording of the Handel Op. 6 Concerti Grossi)

[pastoralguy]

I have very fond memories of buying Karajan's 1977/78 set as a teenager whose was dipping his toe into an exciting world for the first time. Yes, I was probably 'taken in' by the posters in the shop and the marketing but I was very aware that I was buying a quality product. The first one I bought was the 'Pastoral' and it was so superior to my father's battered old mono vinyl of the Vienna State Opera orchestra under Karl Rankl that I couldn't not be seduced!

Later on, I bought the rest and they remained a cornerstone of my collection until cd came along. I loved the covers and was surprised that DG didn't replicate them when they were reissued on cd. (Although the 9th was issued with the original artwork in 2007). When Mrs. PG bought me the Karajan DG 1970's box set I was quite disappointed that the original photos weren't faithfully reproduced since, iirc, the 5th and 6th ended up on one disc. (The Asian edition kept the jackets exactly as they had been on their original releases)

Ah well.

[Barbirollians]

Nice to see such a balanced discussion

IMHO the anti-Karajan reaction following his death was a(n over-) reaction to some of the rather OTT marketing of his work

It's hard to listen to him at his best (1962 Eroica, Honneger 3, Testament Brahms 1, most of his Bruckner, 1960s Sibelius). Even some of his less well-regarded material has merits, even if a long way from a "library" choice (e.g. I have 50% of his recording of the Handel Op. 6 Concerti Grossi)

I think you are right - the OTT marketing as if he was the only conductor whose records were worth buying was something I recall from the 1980s ( it seemed to work his records sold million upon million ) coupled with his autocratic tendencies and the whiff of his Nazi Party membership all played a part .

He was a much more complex man than that and a great conductor even if not the greatest of all time as DG liked to suggest . For me it was his 1960s recordings of Beethoven 4 and 8 in particular that I fell for on cheap budget reissues - I used to play the finale of the 8th over and over in my late teens .