Karajan's 1980s Digital Beethoven Cycle on DG

**Eine Alpensinfonie** · 31-05-16, 20:44

Originally posted by silvestrione View Post

For many years I detested Karajan...pure prejudice.

I've never detested Karajan, but I do think that many of his best recordings are those he made for Decca and EMI. I have almost all his Decca ones.

**Conchis** · 31-05-16, 21:03

Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post

I've never detested Karajan, but I do think that many of his best recordings are those he made for Decca and EMI. I have almost all his Decca ones.

Contrasting opinion: I find his Decca recordings largely a disappointment, with the notable exception of the Tebaldi/Bergonzi Aida. There seemed to be something a bit cosy about his relationship with the Vienna Philharmonic at this point in his career which made for dullish (to my ears, anyway) results in the studio.

He was a different animal in Berlin for EMI in the same period and there is something very special about those early BPO recordings, with conductor and orchestra still sniffing each others' bottoms (so to speak:)). This was before the so-called 'homogenisation' of the BPO sound and the assertion that Karajan made every composer sound the same (one in which there might be just a grain of truth).

Leaving aside the crazy and wrong-headed 'ethical prejudices' people have about von K, I think some of the criticisms that have been made of his music-making are stimulating and possibly valid: when Robert Layton (I think) talked about Karajan's Sibelius as being like 'a stormy fjord seen through the smoked glass windows of a heated limousine' (sic?), he had a point - though it doesn't make me enjoy von K's Sibelius any less.

**Beef Oven!** · 31-05-16, 21:05

Originally posted by Conchis View Post

when Robert Layton (I think) talked about Karajan's Sibelius as being like 'a stormy fjord seen through the smoked glass windows of a heated limousine' (sic?), he had a point - though it doesn't make me enjoy von K's Sibelius any less.

I’m quite taken by Karajan’s Sibelius, all of it and both on EMI & DG. I don’t understand the point that RL is making. What is it?

**Conchis** · 31-05-16, 21:13

Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post

I’m quite taken by Karajan’s Sibelius, all of it and both on EMI & DG. I don’t understand the point that RL is making. What is it?

I think RL's point is a variation on the familiar one, that Karajan goes for beauty of sound over visceral impact. Stravinsky's famous 'pet savage' put down of von K's first Rite Of Spring was in the same vein.

**ferneyhoughgeliebte** · 31-05-16, 21:22

Are you sure it was Layton, Conchis? The comment doesn't tally with others he's made highly favourable about Karajan's Sibelius recordings.

**Petrushka** · 31-05-16, 21:27

Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post

I also heard that they were originally put together for the Korean market. Do you know if the remasterings are different from the Karajan Gold remasters?

Good question and one that I've wondered myself. Not having heard any of the Gold re-masters I can't say but not everything emerged in that format. Memories of the original LP and CD transfers would indicate significant improvements in the discs as presented in the massive boxes. I have, of course, much better equipment than in the 1980s which makes it much harder to gauge.

Off topic but one odd niggle about the 1970s box: the large booklet provided doesn't list an index of works whereas the other two do. Can anyone else who has the box confirm theirs is likewise? It's very annoying and a strange omission.

**Beef Oven!** · 31-05-16, 21:27

Originally posted by Conchis View Post

I think RL's point is a variation on the familiar one, that Karajan goes for beauty of sound over visceral impact. Stravinsky's famous 'pet savage' put down of von K's first Rite Of Spring was in the same vein.

That’s what I suspected, peddling the old beautifying canard. I know that you will agree that some of those HvK Sibelius performances are pretty powerful and not that pretty, take his EMI #4 for example. I’m sure Robert Layton knows more than me about these things, to say nothing of Stravinsky (I actually quite like both of HvK’s Rites!)!!!!

**Conchis** · 31-05-16, 21:28

Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post

Are you sure it was Layton, Conchis? The comment doesn't tally with others he's made highly favourable about Karajan's Sibelius recordings.

No, I'm not sure. I heard the quote on a BAL many years ago - Layton may have been presenting it, hence the confusion. As you say, he is generally a Karajan admirer.

**teamsaint** · 31-05-16, 21:29

Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post

Are you sure it was Layton, Conchis? The comment doesn't tally with others he's made highly favourable about Karajan's Sibelius recordings.

Conchers is correct....

( see p 29 if the link doesnt take you straight there).

Sibelius Studies

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6p9lAkbz7fAC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=karajan+sibelius+limousine&source=bl&ots=INdMU0X90T&sig=azV3wgPXP80W0d64kVFMHr2IyMI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhzua1oIXNAhUiK8AKHY6JAywQ6AEIKzAE#v=onepage&q=karajan%20sibelius%20limousine&f=false

This book, first published in 2001, presents a portrait of Jean Sibelius as composer and man, a figure of national and international significance, patriot, husband and father. Three introductory articles explore Sibelius's reception in Finland, performance practice and recording history, and Sibelius's aesthetic position with regard to modernity. The second group of essays examines issues of ideology, sexuality and mythology, and their relationship to musical structure and compositional genesis. Studies of the Second, Fourth, Sixth, and Seventh Symphonies are presented in the concluding section. Collectively, these articles address historical, theoretical and analytical issues in Sibelius's most important works. The analyses are supported by investigations of Sibelius's compositional process as documented by the manuscripts and sketches primarily in the Sibelius Collection of the Helsinki University Library. Exploring Sibelius's innovative approach to tonality, form and texture, the book delineates his unique brand of modernism, which has proven highly influential in the late twentieth century.

Seems like he changed his mind after 30 years. Which is fair enough.

**Petrushka** · 31-05-16, 21:40

Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post

I actually quite like both of HvK’s Rites!!!!!

So do I. There is, however, a live 1978 performance on the Palexa label (coupled with a live Beethoven 7) that blows both out of the water! Probably nla as I can't find a link.

STOP PRESS: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Karajan-Con...eywords=palexa

And to think I got mine from Gramex in London for a fiver!!

**Beef Oven!** · 31-05-16, 21:41

Originally posted by teamsaint View Post

Conchers is correct....

( see p 29 if the link doesnt take you straight there).

Sibelius Studies

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6p9lAkbz7fAC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=karajan+sibelius+limousine&source=bl&ots=INdMU0X90T&sig=azV3wgPXP80W0d64kVFMHr2IyMI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhzua1oIXNAhUiK8AKHY6JAywQ6AEIKzAE#v=onepage&q=karajan%20sibelius%20limousine&f=false

This book, first published in 2001, presents a portrait of Jean Sibelius as composer and man, a figure of national and international significance, patriot, husband and father. Three introductory articles explore Sibelius's reception in Finland, performance practice and recording history, and Sibelius's aesthetic position with regard to modernity. The second group of essays examines issues of ideology, sexuality and mythology, and their relationship to musical structure and compositional genesis. Studies of the Second, Fourth, Sixth, and Seventh Symphonies are presented in the concluding section. Collectively, these articles address historical, theoretical and analytical issues in Sibelius's most important works. The analyses are supported by investigations of Sibelius's compositional process as documented by the manuscripts and sketches primarily in the Sibelius Collection of the Helsinki University Library. Exploring Sibelius's innovative approach to tonality, form and texture, the book delineates his unique brand of modernism, which has proven highly influential in the late twentieth century.

Seems like he changed his mind after 30 years. Which is fair enough.

Seems like? It’s a bit more than that!

He essentially tells us he got it wrong and says “....three decades later I hope I know better......the beauty of sonority is never there to attract attention to itself but to bring one as close to the ideal conception of the fourth symphony”.

Pretty much how I see HvK’s performance.

**ferneyhoughgeliebte** · 31-05-16, 21:42

Originally posted by teamsaint View Post

Conchers is correct....
( see p 29 if the link doesnt take you straight there).

Sibelius Studies

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6p9lAkbz7fAC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=karajan+sibelius+limousine&source=bl&ots=INdMU0X90T&sig=azV3wgPXP80W0d64kVFMHr2IyMI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhzua1oIXNAhUiK8AKHY6JAywQ6AEIKzAE#v=onepage&q=karajan%20sibelius%20limousine&f=false

This book, first published in 2001, presents a portrait of Jean Sibelius as composer and man, a figure of national and international significance, patriot, husband and father. Three introductory articles explore Sibelius's reception in Finland, performance practice and recording history, and Sibelius's aesthetic position with regard to modernity. The second group of essays examines issues of ideology, sexuality and mythology, and their relationship to musical structure and compositional genesis. Studies of the Second, Fourth, Sixth, and Seventh Symphonies are presented in the concluding section. Collectively, these articles address historical, theoretical and analytical issues in Sibelius's most important works. The analyses are supported by investigations of Sibelius's compositional process as documented by the manuscripts and sketches primarily in the Sibelius Collection of the Helsinki University Library. Exploring Sibelius's innovative approach to tonality, form and texture, the book delineates his unique brand of modernism, which has proven highly influential in the late twentieth century.

Seems like he changed his mind after 30 years. Which is fair enough.

Well found, ts!

Yes - the late '70s EMI Sibelius #4 did get some flack when it first appeared (IIRC, RL had put the DG '60s recording amongst the very best in every edition of The Penguin Guides from its first appearance) - glad to see that he came to realize its qualities as he became better acquainted with it. This seems to be a pattern - an instant knee-jerk rejection by some critics, followed by revaluation some years later.

**Beef Oven!** · 31-05-16, 21:43

Originally posted by Petrushka View Post

So do I. There is, however, a live 1978 performance on the Palexa label (coupled with a live Beethoven 7) that blows both out of the water! Probably nla as I can't find a link.

I have never come across that Palexa recording. May need to check it out!

**Barbirollians** · 31-05-16, 21:44

The antipathy to Karajan which is fading as the years pass is I suspect a result of the combination of a number of things -his eye for the main chance as exemplified by his early Nazi party membership . His self importance as shown in the documentary by his run in with the Philharmonia over not paying the musicians and audiences sufficient respect and his ubiquity . Throughout the 1970s and 1980s it seemed as if he could do what he liked and he recorded an extraordinary amount - some great records and some not so great . It is not healthy for one musician to have had so much power and in later life it backfired with the BPO over the Sabine Meyer affair.

He was a great conductor who made many great records but he was far from infallible.

**ferneyhoughgeliebte** · 31-05-16, 21:46

Originally posted by Petrushka View Post

So do I. There is, however, a live 1978 performance on the Palexa label (coupled with a live Beethoven 7) that blows both out of the water! Probably nla as I can't find a link.

There's also -

Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Divertimento-Stravinsky-Testament-2009-10-13/dp/B019GLJ6NK/

What I like is the way Karajan responded to the Composer's criticisms of his '60s recording and "ensavaged" his later readings.

Karajan's 1980s Digital Beethoven Cycle on DG

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