Karajan's 1980s Digital Beethoven Cycle on DG

[Conchis]

The Brahms discussion elsewhere on this forum has recalled this set to mind.

Critical word on the street has been largely negative about it - it was seen, at the time, as a horrible economic indulgence on the part of DG, who had been 'forced' offer their chart-topping maestro yet another Beethoven cycle in order to keep him under contract (I'd have been inclined to dismiss this as a Lebrechtian myth but I think Richard Osborne mentions it in his HvK biog, too). The digital sound was felt to be cold and unimpressive, even at the time, and I'm not sure the set sold all that well (it became well-known as a specially priced introductory offer for Record Clubs - remember them?).

I picked the set up courtesy of Oxfam for the princely sum of £3.49 a few years back and was VERY surprised at how impressive I found it. It includes Karajan's best ever reading of the Pastoral, the symphony that always seem to elude him, at least in the studio, and the other symphonies are just as good. The whole thing is a very easy, but not superficial, listen and it's a toss-up as to which of the three later HvK cycles I prefer (I own them all, apart from the Philharmonia set).

Any opinions on late Karajan Beethoven?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I do like the performance of the 7th in the late cycle - his best, I think.

But as for the DG sound...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

But as for the DG sound...

Though, to be fair, I've just put the disc in for a spin, and the sound, though a little constricted, is much better than many other DG CDs of the period.

[Conchis]

Though, to be fair, I've just put the disc in for a spin, and the sound, though a little constricted, is much better than many other DG CDs of the period.

At the time, it had a presence and an impact that was impressive...only after repeated listens did the 'coldness' become apparent: this is what particularly mars von K's contemporaneous recording of Eine Alpensinfonie.

[Parry1912]

I picked the set up courtesy of Oxfam for the princely sum of £3.49 a few years back and was VERY surprised at how impressive I found it.

Funnily enough, I picked it up in a charity shop recently for a fiver and I enjoyed it much more than I was expecting to. I should say though that I am a fan of Herbie's work.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

At the time, it had a presence and an impact that was impressive...only after repeated listens did the 'coldness' become apparent: this is what particularly mars von K's contemporaneous recording of Eine Alpensinfonie.

Oh no, the sound on the latter is MUCH worse.

[Dave2002]

Funnily enough, I picked it up in a charity shop recently for a fiver and I enjoyed it much more than I was expecting to. I should say though that I am a fan of Herbie's work.

Sounds as though both you and Conchis did well with charity shops. I'll look out for this.

I've never been too struck on Karajan, though some of his work is/was very fine. Although the critics didn't seem to like the digital Beethoven series, I spent some time years ago comparing versions of the 9th, and TBH I thought the digital recording was better, and the performance not so different/inferior compared to the earlier versions. Few other conductors really compare well in that particular symphony, though as some people don't like the piece anyway it won't matter to everyone!

[Beef Oven!]

Oh no, the sound on the latter is MUCH worse.

I’ve been quietly persevering with Karajan’s digital Alpensinfonie and a) I’m beginning to like the work - it’s growing on me quite quickly b) I think the sound is rather good (I have the Karajan Gold remaster).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I do like the performance of the 7th in the late cycle - his best, I think.
But as for the DG sound...

I prefer the '70s version - but the '80s recording was amongst the very first batch of CDs I ever bought in 1985 (as mentioned recently on the relevant Thread). It was the one that most disappointed as a recording: the rhythm of the Allegretto just blurred into a mushy sustained sound. It might even have been the very first CD I ever played - my first player arrived when I was away from home at a job interview, so the parcel had to be accepted by a friend who lived in the same building. One of her favourite works was the Beethoven #7, and she was keen to hear what CDs sounded like, so - as a double celebration (the arrival of the player and my getting the job) I'm pretty certain it was the first work I ever heard in the new medium. (Or "carrier" as they seemed to be called then - like an STD!)

[Barbirollians]

I prefer the '70s version - but the '80s recording was amongst the very first batch of CDs I ever bought in 1985 (as mentioned recently on the relevant Thread). It was the one that most disappointed as a recording: the rhythm of the Allegretto just blurred into a mushy sustained sound. It might even have been the very first CD I ever played - my first player arrived when I was away from home at a job interview, so the parcel had to be accepted by a friend who lived in the same building. One of her favourite works was the Beethoven #7, and she was keen to hear what CDs sounded like, so - as a double celebration (the arrival of the player and my getting the job) I'm pretty certain it was the first work I ever heard in the new medium. (Or "carrier" as they seemed to be called then - like an STD!)

I much prefer the 1960s versions to those of his later accounts I have heard . I do not know the Philharmonia set but as I understood it reports suggest it includes his best Pastoral .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I much prefer the 1960s versions to those of his later accounts I have heard . I do not know the Philharmonia set but as I understood it reports suggest it includes his best Pastoral .

I think honours are shared between the '60s and '70s cycles - 5, 6, 7 & (especially) 9 I prefer in the 70s set; but the '60s Eroica was one of the best things he ever did. But I agree with Conchis - the '80s Pastoral is his finest recording of the work. (The Eighth is pretty good in the last set, too - some aggressively close mic-ing in the original releases make for rather uncomfortable listening at "pressure points".)

The '50s MONO set is lovely.

[Petrushka]

I have all of Karajan's Beethoven cycles: the 1950s mostly mono Philharmonia set on Warner and the DG sets in the whopping big 1960s/70s and 80s boxes. The Warner set has been completely re-mastered and includes a stereo 9th (the 8th was always a stereo release). The big DG boxes cost an arm and a leg but the presentation is utterly superb with very high production values and if I'm not mistaken I understand that, as these were originally intended for the Korean market, all of the discs were completely re-mastered. This means that the complaints made about the 1980s DG sound quality simply evaporate. Even the much maligned Alpensinfonie sound emerges as if born anew.

Karajan's Beethoven remained largely consistent throughout his career and with the re-masterings given to them I cannot understand the dismissive reviews I was reading at the time of the original releases in the 1980s. With the advent of digital recording allied with his film work it was inevitable that Karajan would have wanted to record them afresh and he must have known that this cycle would be his final word.

I'm playing them again this evening (1 & 3) and they sound wonderful.

[Beef Oven!]

I have all of Karajan's Beethoven cycles: the 1950s mostly mono Philharmonia set on Warner and the DG sets in the whopping big 1960s/70s and 80s boxes. The Warner set has been completely re-mastered and includes a stereo 9th (the 8th was always a stereo release). The big DG boxes cost an arm and a leg but the presentation is utterly superb with very high production values and if I'm not mistaken I understand that, as these were originally intended for the Korean market, all of the discs were completely re-mastered. This means that the complaints made about the 1980s DG sound quality simply evaporate. Even the much maligned Alpensinfonie sound emerges as if born anew.

Karajan's Beethoven remained largely consistent throughout his career and with the re-masterings given to them I cannot understand the dismissive reviews I was reading at the time of the original releases in the 1980s. With the advent of digital recording allied with his film work it was inevitable that Karajan would have wanted to record them afresh and he must have known that this cycle would be his final word.

I'm playing them again this evening (1 & 3) and they sound wonderful.

Great summary, great collection!

I have a lot of what you’ve got, but not in the remastered boxes. I also heard that they were originally put together for the Korean market. Do you know if the remasterings are different from the Karajan Gold remasters?

I’ve always understood the criticisms of Karajan. Tall poppies and the inability of so many people to deal with genuinely talented successful contemporary people. They are seen as a threat. We create non-threatening avuncular characters like Barbirolli, Walter et al that we feel ok with and conveniently overlook the negative side of our Klemeperers, Szells, Celibidaches et al. All part of the human condition, I suppose.

What was it Nietzsche said? "I dislike that man, why? Because I am no match for him - these are words I’ve never heard said”. Or something like that.

[silvestrione]

For many years I detested Karajan...pure prejudice. Now I have more recordings by him than any other conductor.

I recently got rid of the 80s Beethoven box, simply becuase it seemed excessive to have four cycles from the same conductor! I could not be without the Philharmonia Pastoral (for me that's the best, with the live one form Russia), the 60s 3 and 4, and the 70s 1, 2 and 9. But I do regret not having the 80s Eroica, and that stunning Egmont Overture that was packaged with it!

[Beef Oven!]

For many years I detested Karajan...pure prejudice.

Yes, lots of people ‘detested’ Karajan, for no good reason.

Now I have more recordings by him than any other conductor.

I, unintentionally, am in the same boat!

I recently got rid of the 80s Beethoven box, simply becuase it seemed excessive to have four cycles from the same conductor! I could not be without the Philharmonia Pastoral (for me that's the best, with the live one form Russia), the 60s 3 and 4, and the 70s 1, 2 and 9. But I do regret not having the 80s Eroica, and that stunning Egmont Overture that was packaged with it!

Coincidentally, on the back of today’s discussions, I chose this recording as the one to listen to earlier!