Karajan's 1980s Digital Beethoven Cycle on DG

[vinteuil]

... the rather OTT marketing of his work

... yes, those awful photographs of Him as Maestro.

As marketing, quite counterproductive for myself and many of my friends and colleagues.

It took me quite a time to break thro' the dislike of the Image to begin to enjoy his work.

[Conchis]

... yes, those awful photographs of Him as Maestro.

As marketing, quite counterproductive for myself and many of my friends and colleagues.

It took me quite a time to break thro' the dislike of the Image to begin to enjoy his work.

Now that he's been gone for a decent length of time, I think we can be objective about the marketing.

Yes: the idea was to associate Karajan with a kind of 'gold standard' level of performance - but hadn't much the same thing been done with Toscanini in the USA in the late forties.early fifties?

There's no denying Karajan had a fascinating face and the camera loved him (and he may have loved the camera). Some great cover images as well as some strange experiments (the leather jacket, etc - though no stranger than Solti wearing a floppy hat in the same timeframe).

[pastoralguy]

I'm doing a little bit of comparison here, starting with the first movt. of Symphony 1 in the original issue of the 1980's set. (Bought in a charity shop for £1.99 ). Then I'll compare it to the DG set entitled '1980's'. (Absolutley not bought in a charity shop!)

IMHO, the newer transfer is cleaner and a softer sound. There isn't as much congestion although it's still quite 'string heavy'. I find that I can hear the wind and brass better although I have a better ear for them having listened to so many period performances.

What isn't in dispute is the wonderful playing of Die Berliner Philharmoniker. What an orchestra!

[Petrushka]

The myth persists that Karajan always had his photos on the cover. Looking through the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s boxes from DG which carry the original cover artwork it is noticeable just how few of them carry Karajan's photographic image.

The notorious leather jacket Heldenleben cover came from EMI and gave rise to a lot of comment but all told I don't think that Karajan's image was on the cover any more than Abbado or Solti.

[Conchis]

The myth persists that Karajan always had his photos on the cover. Looking through the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s boxes from DG which carry the original cover artwork it is noticeable just how few of them carry Karajan's photographic image.

The notorious leather jacket Heldenleben cover came from EMI and gave rise to a lot of comment but all told I don't think that Karajan's image was on the cover any more than Abbado or Solti.

Richard Osborne tells a very fun story in his Karajan biog about Karajan's recording of a series of Prussian and Austrian marches sometime in the early seventies. Eager to contextualise the fact that these marches were all part and parcel of a culture that drove Europe to destruction in two world war, von K came up with the bright idea of a desert plain and, in the distance, 'a marble swastika, engulfed in flame.'

DG's art directors wondered what Karajan's more imaginative critics might make of this, given that marble is immune to flame and the idea would therefore suggest the 'indestructibility' of Nazi ideals. The idea didn't get very far.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Karajan's prominence was helped very much by Walter Legg, who pushed him ahead of Furtwangler, creating much anger in the older conductor.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Karajan's prominence was helped very much by Walter Legg, who pushed him ahead of Furtwangler, creating much anger in the older conductor.

"Very much helped", yes - but Legge was equally eager to work with WF, but found him very inconsistent in his attitude to recording (WF would seem to agree to ideas verbally, only to change his mind once the contracts had been drawn up) and wouldn't let himself be "pushed". Karajan was closer in spirit to Legge's ideas about the potential of the recorded medium, and was a great conductor who was willing to work with Legge on the founding of the Philharmonia Orchestra - thus arousing WF's jealousy (he always was paranoid about Karajan's successes) and simultaneously getting him into the recording studio (for Tristan and Walkure etc). In the event, WF "fired" Legge after Tristan (whilst simultaneously praising Legge's work on the recording), so the latter couldn't "push" him ahead or behind the younger conductor.

[Ferretfancy]

I was lucky enough to see him conduct in London on a number of occasions, usually with the Philharmonia and a couple of times with the Berlin Philharmonic. The latter visit included an awe inspiring Bruckner 8. The platform mannerisms were already evident,eyes closed, head bowed, but the performances had an energy and vigour that seemed to fade in later years.
I still enjoy most of the first stereo set of the Beethoven symphonies, particularly the Eroica, but I would love to sample his mono performances with the Philharmonia, which were special listening for me in my late teens.
The BPO must have been very busy in 1961/2 because apart from Karajan they recorded the excellent Cluytens set, in fact this just pipped Karajan to the post as the first stereo cycle.

[Conchis]

"Very much helped", yes - but Legge was equally eager to work with WF, but found him very inconsistent in his attitude to recording (WF would seem to agree to ideas verbally, only to change his mind once the contracts had been drawn up) and wouldn't let himself be "pushed". Karajan was closer in spirit to Legge's ideas about the potential of the recorded medium, and was a great conductor who was willing to work with Legge on the founding of the Philharmonia Orchestra - thus arousing WF's jealousy (he always was paranoid about Karajan's successes) and simultaneously getting him into the recording studio (for Tristan and Walkure etc). In the event, WF "fired" Legge after Tristan (whilst simultaneously praising Legge's work on the recording), so the latter couldn't "push" him ahead or behind the younger conductor.

Relations between Legge and Furtwangler were permanently damaged after Legge awarded EMI's recording of Die Zauberflote (F's favourite opera) to 'that man K.'

[Barbirollians]

I was lucky enough to see him conduct in London on a number of occasions, usually with the Philharmonia and a couple of times with the Berlin Philharmonic. The latter visit included an awe inspiring Bruckner 8. The platform mannerisms were already evident,eyes closed, head bowed, but the performances had an energy and vigour that seemed to fade in later years.
I still enjoy most of the first stereo set of the Beethoven symphonies, particularly the Eroica, but I would love to sample his mono performances with the Philharmonia, which were special listening for me in my late teens.
The BPO must have been very busy in 1961/2 because apart from Karajan they recorded the excellent Cluytens set, in fact this just pipped Karajan to the post as the first stereo cycle.

Quite cheap now FF about £15 or so on Amazon .

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Symphonies-Overtures-1951-1955-Remastered/dp/B00HYFKJKK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1464865033&sr=8-3&keywords=beethoven+philharmonia+karajan

[Ferretfancy]

Quite cheap now FF about £15 or so on Amazon .

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-S...rmonia+karajan

Thanks for that, I already have the Cluytens, and I've just 1-clicked the Karajan/Philharmonia. You're a bit of a devil!

Regards
Ferret

[Sir Velo]

I picked the set up courtesy of Oxfam for the princely sum of £3.49 a few years back and was VERY surprised at how impressive I found it. It includes Karajan's best ever reading of the Pastoral, the symphony that always seem to elude him, at least in the studio, and the other symphonies are just as good. The whole thing is a very easy, but not superficial, listen and it's a toss-up as to which of the three later HvK cycles I prefer (I own them all, apart from the Philharmonia set).

Any opinions on late Karajan Beethoven?

Karajan must be one hell of a musician. Judging from all the comments. not only did he conduct on these records he clearly played all the instruments as well.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Relations between Legge and Furtwangler were permanently damaged after Legge awarded EMI's recording of Die Zauberflote (F's favourite opera) to 'that man K.'

- but WF couldn't make up his mind when, where and with whom he wanted to record (and his Music-making was as near antipathetic to recording as it is possible to get) anything. Culshaw at DECCA reports this in his memoirs - and WF could have got any European recording company to record a Zauberflöte with him in charge. His indecision was bound to go against the business of the record companies; to our loss. (And "that man K's" Zauberflöte is[/are] wonderful!)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

- and WF could have got any European recording company to record a Zauberflöte with him in charge. His indecision was bound to go against the business of the record companies; to our loss. (And "that man K's" Zauberflöte is[/are] wonderful!)

Thankfully there's a WF live Die Zauberflöte from 1951, the year after that Karajan studio recording. Both share much of the same cast.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thankfully there's a WF live Die Zauberflöte from 1951, the year after that Karajan studio recording. Both share much of the same cast.

- and even film of a fragment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOyPXsgF6sg