Karajan's 1980s Digital Beethoven Cycle on DG

[Beef Oven!]

This seems to be a pattern - an instant knee-jerk rejection by some critics, followed by revaluation some years later.

I would suggest that, that is because they are thinking about things other than the music. Inevitably, they will come to realise their lack of good sense.

[Petrushka]

I have never come across that Palexa recording. May need to check it out!

Link found as in post #25!!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have never come across that Palexa recording. May need to check it out!

Brilliant coupling, too! (I shall wait until the price comes down! )

[Beef Oven!]

The antipathy to Karajan which is fading as the years pass is I suspect a result of the combination of a number of things -his eye for the main chance as exemplified by his early Nazi party membership .

Yes, but it’s not sufficient to explain it all. Clemens Krauss displayed far more cynical self-interest when he left Austria to jump into the shoes of the Jewish conductors that had been sacked in Germany for the crime of being Jewish. But he was not very successful, in overall terms. Karajan’s success has much to do with it. Also Karajan never discussed his party membership and certainly never publicly repented. Krauss obviously did try to make amends.

His self importance as shown in the documentary by his run in with the Philharmonia over not paying the musicians and audiences sufficient respect and his ubiquity .

Hardly a big deal in the overall scheme of things and unlikely to have had much of an influence on the negative appraisal of his recordings.

Throughout the 1970s and 1980s it seemed as if he could do what he liked and he recorded an extraordinary amount - some great records and some not so great . It is not healthy for one musician to have had so much power and in later life it backfired with the BPO over the Sabine Meyer affair.

Arguably, it was healthy for all concerned for Karajan to lead in the way that he did. The musicians never had it so good and were payed more than double any other musicians in the world, concert goers and record buyers had some of the most sublime performances and Karajan realised his ambition. Win-win?

The Sabine Meyer business was wrong on K’s part, but it was part of the end games of an ungrateful group of musicians who had probably had it too good, for too long. K gave them something of an awakening by switching the recording of Vivaldi’s Four seasons to the VPO, depriving them of a huge windfall in royalties that had been taking for granted.

He was a great conductor who made many great records but he was far from infallible.

This is a bit of a straw man. No-one has said that Karajan was infallible.

[Beef Oven!]

Link found as in post #25!!

Thanks, I may buy two copies in case I misplace one.

[Beef Oven!]

Brilliant coupling, too! (I shall wait until the price comes down! )

Can we crowd fund it??

[Conchis]

Richard Osborne's Karajan biography is masterly and as near definitive as a biography can be - but it still doesn't get the core of how Karajan was able to acquire so much power in so short a period. By 1960, he had the musical world - at least as far as Europe was concerned - in his top pocket, a mere fifteen years after his 'de-Nazification.'

Obviously, he was not - and would not have been content to be 'just' a conductor and the 'business tycoon' side of his make-up remains under-researched.

[Petrushka]

Can we crowd fund it??

Include me out!

The end of the first part of this live Rite is stunning, the most wild thing I've ever heard with manic bass drum work. Wish Igor could have heard it, no 'pet savage' here!

[Beef Oven!]

Richard Osborne's Karajan biography is masterly and as near definitive as a biography can be - but it still doesn't get the core of how Karajan was able to acquire so much power in so short a period. By 1960, he had the musical world - at least as far as Europe was concerned - in his top pocket, a mere fifteen years after his 'de-Nazification.'

Obviously, he was not - and would not have been content to be 'just' a conductor and the 'business tycoon' side of his make-up remains under-researched.

A good question. Some of it can be explained by a coincidence of wants with the tycoon, Walter Legge. Some of it by the rapid build and rise of many enterprises following the devastation and then massive rebuild following the war.

[richardfinegold]

I have many Beethoven cycles, but have only had 1 Karajan complete, the 1963. I purchased these as used lps about 5 years ago. They were in less than pristine shape but I worked through them, fascinated. Having now sold off my turntable and disposed of my lps, they are gone and though I enjoyed them I don't forsee myself replacing them with digital copies.
When I began listening to music in the mid 70s, many critics here were scornful of von K. The term "Chocolate Beethoven" was used quite a bit, and while von Ks sixties cycle sold well here it never had the critical respect that it had elsewhere. My first cycle was Szell (which sounds absolutely stunning in it's new remastering), then Solti, and then I concentrated on individual versions of the Symphonies and didn't add another complete set for probably 20 years (now my shelves runneth over). I was also influenced by my ethnic background, having many Holocaust Survivors in my family. The Jews of my Parents generation were utterly dismissive of von K and like many Americans, in the throes of adulation to Toscanini, whose Anti Fascist credentials were impeccable.
It was von Ks Sibelius that won me over a few years later, and I still think he may have been unmatchable in that repertoire. I then began buying his records but somehow not his Beethoven, as the "chocolate Beethoven" remark seemed to stick. I also noted that many American Critics that blasted his 1960s cycle suddenly seemed to find a new appreciation for it when the 70s cycle appeared, unfavorably comparing the latter with the former. Then in what seemed the blink of an eye another Beethoven cycle appeared in the 80s, seemingly a cynical attempt to capitalize on the novelty of digital recording techniques, and my initial antipathy to von Ks Beethoven was strengthened.
So when i setled for a listen to his mid 60s cycle, finally with all that baggage somewhere in the periphery for me, I was very pleasantly surprised at how thrilling it was, and how it must have seemed to contemporary listeners in the early 60s, when complete sets were still a rare beast, and I began to understand the love for von K that many possess for the first time.
I've only heard smatterings of the later two cycles. I have the 9th from the 70s on a Blu Ray Audio disc, and the digital 6th as an itunes download. They are excellent and though I have struggled to find fault with them in truth I cannot. So I can't advise people on the relative merits of the different cycles, but only offer the above as a cautionary tale on how prejudices can influence our (or at least my) Artistic taste

[Dave2002]

There is little correlation between actions and opinions with talent, ability, creativity and achievements. Wagner is the very obvious musical example, and his works are still the most performed at the Proms. I don't think I was too much influenced by K's baggage when I took a dislike to some of his work, though I did try to see him live to find out what the fuss was about. Unfortunately that didn't work out - and he died before another opportunity presented itself.

Some of his recordings may very well have been let down badly by recording techniques and quality, and if the remasterings are good then that is much to be welcomed.

Some of his recorded performances are outstanding, and either lead the field, or are near the top of the list. He didn't always do the same thing either, and some of his Mozart+Philharmonia performances were excellent. LIke some other conductors he may have been considerably different in live performances than recordings, and it is mostly his recordings by which we think we know him now.

Oddly, I've never fully got on with the Sibelius 4, but that might be due to the work as much as K. It was K's version which I heard first, and I've not fully got over my concerns about that work, whoever conducts it. There again, is it a work which one can really be said to "enjoy"?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A very interesting post, Richard. When critics make "clever" comments like "chocolate Beethoven", it's probably best to remember that no-one ever built a statue of a critic. We can read a review, but should only regard it as a starting point.

[vinteuil]

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http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/583cc5c3cdd6498ab9aee829d81a49e4/samuel-johnson-statue-in-the-strand-london-ak2xh5.jpg

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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Samuel_Johnson_Statue.jpg

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[PJPJ]

I’ve been quietly persevering with Karajan’s digital Alpensinfonie and a) I’m beginning to like the work - it’s growing on me quite quickly b) I think the sound is rather good (I have the Karajan Gold remaster).

I thought the remaster of the Alpensinf was much improved.

[Beef Oven!]

I thought the remaster of the Alpensinf was much improved.

Good to hear. I never had the original release, so I will be guided by others.