Brahms Symphony Cycles

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have got got hold of the Memories CD of that Brahms 2 I think it is thrilling and uplifting .i do not really hear what Tetrachord does in it .

There are dark shadows in the first two movements that Furtwangler, Abbado and Jurowski bring out (causing real shivers down the spine - the joyfulness of the end of the work is all the more effective after being so hard won) - but "melancholy" doesn't do this justice, except, perhaps, in the Burtonian usage meaning something closer to our "despair" or "depression". But there's no way the Second can be described simplistically as "deeply melancholic" - any more than it can be superficially described as "sunny". Brahms' overlooked comic mastery is very prominent in the Second Symphony.

[Stanfordian]

The complete Brahms symphonies have done well for excellent recordings. I have settled on 2 great sets:
Gewandhausorchester Leipzig/Riccardo Chailly/Decca
Philharmonia/Otto Klemperer/Warner
Such wonderful playing with the Klemperer set especially highly dramatic.

4 more very fine sets that that I play also worthy of praise:
Berliner Philharmoniker/Rattle/Warner
Berliner Philharmoniker/Abbado/DG
Wiener Philharmoniker/Karl Böhm/DG
Berliner Philharmoniker/Eugen Jochum/DG

[Beef Oven!]

The complete Brahms symphonies have done well for excellent recordings. I have settled on 2 great sets:
Gewandhausorchester Leipzig/Riccardo Chailly/Decca
Philharmonia/Otto Klemperer/Warner
Such wonderful playing with the Klemperer set especially highly dramatic.

4 more very fine sets that that I play also worthy of praise:
Berliner Philharmoniker/Rattle/Warner
Berliner Philharmoniker/Abbado/DG
Wiener Philharmoniker/Karl Böhm/DG
Berliner Philharmoniker/Eugen Jochum/DG

Stan,

Totally agree with you on the Philharmonia Klemperer. And the sound quality on the Qobuz Hi-Res download is astonishing.

Qobuz are selling this cycle as Hi-Res download for just £6.76 in total - an amazing bargain!!!

[Tetrachord]

There are dark shadows in the first two movements that Furtwangler, Abbado and Jurowski bring out (causing real shivers down the spine - the joyfulness of the end of the work is all the more effective after being so hard won) - but "melancholy" doesn't do this justice, except, perhaps, in the Burtonian usage meaning something closer to our "despair" or "depression". But there's no way the Second can be described simplistically as "deeply melancholic" - any more than it can be superficially described as "sunny". Brahms' overlooked comic mastery is very prominent in the Second Symphony.

I don't understand the "comic mastery" of Brahms at all.

I agree that Symphony #2 cannot be simplistically described as "melancholy" since it is generally believed to be the most sanguine of the 4. But I'm referring to a kind of plangent harmonic framework and orchestration which casts a shadow over all of these immaculate symphonies and from which I don't think most of them ever fully emerge. The same can be said of much of the orchestral writing of Brahms, though it is very difficult to define the exact nature of that quality. I make poor attempts through language to explain something so exquisitely and ineffably rendered in music.

[silvestrione]

Brahms and 'comic mastery'....I like that, though it's a surprising characteristion, in the context of the symphonies. But there's a moment towards the end of the 1st movement of the 2nd when the texture suddenly lightens, and the brass (is it?) play softly a staccato phrase...that's comic mastery. As for shivers down the spine: yes, near the beginning, when the music dies away and almost stops, and there's an eerie roll of the timpani...a soft brass phrase....another roll...Marvellously done by Karajan and VPO in their post-war (I'm sure that's relevant) version.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Brahms and 'comic mastery'....I like that, though it's a surprising characteristion, in the context of the symphonies. But there's a moment towards the end of the 1st movement of the 2nd when the texture suddenly lightens, and the brass (is it?) play softly a staccato phrase...that's comic mastery.

- precisely the moment I had in mind; and perfect comic timing, too; following the aching Horn solo, and the near-scmaltzy string response: this perky little oom-pah theme emerges with a distinct "Ooh! Get her!" air! Marvellous. And the Scherzo is Chaplinesque, too.

As for shivers down the spine: yes, near the beginning, when the music dies away and almost stops, and there's an eerie roll of the timpani...a soft brass phrase....another roll..

- at bar 32-40 (and how dead single Timp stroke and DB pizz at bar 40 trumps even those sinister rolls!) There's also those glowering Trombone snarls in the Second Movement between bars 55-61; a real chill here - Furtwangler's 1940s performance really brings this out. Brrr!

[silvestrione]

Very nice analysis/descriptions. Must have that Furtwangler somewhere, must get it out.

[Lordgeous]

Suprised no-one has mentioned Cantelli. I still find his Brahms 1 (with the Philmormonia) thrilling, and the orchestra at its prime. Only mono alas. i think he recorded Brahms 3 too but I don't know that.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Suprised no-one has mentioned Cantelli. I still find his Brahns 1 (with the Philmormonia) thrilling, and the orchestra at its prime. Only mono alas. i think he recorded Brahms 3 too but I don't know that.

The other way round for me - his (and Walter's) recordings of the Third were how I "learnt" the work (after seeing a film of Karajan conducting it on BBC2) in the mid-'70s. Both lovely performances, by turns lyrical and - yes, as you say of the First - thrilling; made a lifelong Brahmsian of me.

Cantelli's recording of the First I've never heard, alas, and until your post I wasn't even aware of it! Shall certainly look it up

[Barbirollians]

The Warner Icon set of Cantelli recordings is well worth its price tag although rather more expensive than a couple of years ago .

I have finished listening to the Karajan 1960s cycle . The First is very good but any other HVK First I imagine will always be in the shadow of the RFH live account no 2 is very good but lacks the final ounce of charm and delight of his Philharmonua account . The Third is the relative disappointment it is not bad but it lacks that really thrilling sweep of Walter and Furtwangler . The Fourth on the other hand is terrific the Passacaglia in particular has an inexorable tragic momentum . A fourth to rank up there with the Kleiber, Walter and CSO Giulini

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The Warner Icon set of Cantelli recordings is well worth its price tag although rather more expensive than a couple of years ago .

Yes - I've had my eye on that box since the beginning of the month: a Christmas treat, I think.

I have finished listening to the Karajan 1960s cycle . The First is very good but any other HVK First I imagine will always be in the shadow of the RFH live account no 2 is very good but lacks the final ounce of charm and delight of his Philharmonua account . The Third is the relative disappointment it is not bad but it lacks that really thrilling sweep of Walter and Furtwangler . The Fourth on the other hand is terrific the Passacaglia in particular has an inexorable tragic momentum . A fourth to rank up there with the Kleiber, Walter and CSO Giulini

Sums up my own response to that '60s set, too.

[Lordgeous]

[QUOTE=Barbirollians;571871]The Warner Icon set of Cantelli recordings is well worth its price tag although rather more expensive than a couple of years ago .

Gottit! Also has his wonderful Debussy & Ravel. I read this elsewhere: "As for the Brahms 1 it is the finest account I have ever heard - the interplay between solo violin and horn in the andante is frankly beyond description in its beauty and it is so exciting from first bar to last . A realisation of the piece that one might dream about but never expect to hear."

+1 from me.

[Petrushka]

Has anyone got the Eduard van Beinum/Concertgebouw cycle recorded in 1958? I have the Violin Concerto and Symphony No 1 with the Haydn Variations, Alto Rhapsody and two overtures. All excellent, the Symphony No 1 in particular is given real momentum and drive in a finely recorded performance and it makes me hanker after the complete set. Currently at £42 on Amazon, it's a bit expensive. An ideal candidate for reissue on Eloquence I would have thought.

[visualnickmos]

.....The Third is the relative disappointment it is not bad but it lacks that really thrilling sweep of Walter and Furtwangler . The Fourth on the other hand is terrific the Passacaglia in particular has an inexorable tragic momentum . A fourth to rank up there with the Kleiber, Walter and CSO Giulini

The third is the Brahms symphony that I just cannot seem to 'get'. I'm not saying I dislike it, not at all, but whenever I listen to it, I have the feeling I'm waiting for the stage curtains to fully open, revealing a beautiful scene, but then it ends, and those curtains are still not fully open. It's as if I'm somehow missing, or not hearing something... I wish I could listen to it with a sense of resolution instead of mistiness...

[pastoralguy]

The third is the Brahms symphony that I just cannot seem to 'get'. I'm not saying I dislike it, not at all, but whenever I listen to it, I have the feeling I'm waiting for the stage curtains to fully open, revealing a beautiful scene, but then it ends, and those curtains are still not fully open. It's as if I'm somehow missing, or not hearing something... I wish I could listen to it with a sense of resolution instead of mistiness...

Oddly, it's not the Brahms symphony I reach for first but when I end up hearing it I do wonder why I don't listen to it more often. Having said that, it's often been a source of disappointment to me in concert. The Berlin Philharmonic played it under Abbado at an Edinburgh Festival concert years ago. I was so looking forward to hearing the orchestra live for the first time under a conductor who I'd previously heard conduct no. 4 as if it was the only time he was going to perform it. The LSO played it like demons possessed!

In the event, the Brahms 3 was a huge let down. As I later found out, Abbado had recently alerted the press that he would NOT be renewing his contract with the Berliners. Alas, he had failed to let the players know. To say the atmosphere between orchestra and conductor was frosty would be an understatement! By the end of the concert, Abbado was well versed in the nooks and crannies of the Usher Hall's ceiling having 'conducted' Brahms 3 with no eye contact with the musicians.

I also heard Bernstein conduct it with the Vienna Philharmonic but he seemed very tired and out of sorts and it resulted in another lacklustre performance. What made it worse was that I'd heard a terrific performance from the BBCSSO under a young conductor called Simon Rattle a few weeks before!

For what it's worth, my favourite CDs are Karajan and the Berlin Phil on both his DG CDs.