Brahms Symphony Cycles

[Conchis]

A good question not yet answered.

His 70s BPO set on DG is a very safe recommendation but you might be just as safe going for his 60s DG set (although those recordings aren't in a tidy twofer, like the later ones0.

Not sampled his digital 'final word' cycle but most people seem to dislike Karajan's remakes. That said, his digital Beethoven cycle (which I picked up via a charity shop for all of £3.49) is excellent to my ears, and every bit as good as his much-vaunted 60s set.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A good question not yet answered.

Well, an answer was at least implied in

[Karajan's '70s recordings] great readings; as were Herbie's '60s and '80s recordings, too.

In other words, "take your pick"!

As Conchis mentions, the '80s recordings don't receive the same plaudits - and the recorded sound on the original releases is a bit murky - but the performances are very special. And the sound isn't "bad" - there seems to be building up a new consensus amongst critics who listen to these performances again after some years, that they are surprised at how much better they are from how they'd been remembered (I've heard three such comments from different commentators to this effect on CD/Record Review in recent months. Karajan's achievement seems to have been neglected by some during his lifetime - now that the man is no longer around to inspire distaste and/or envy, more attention is being focussed on his Music-making, which is being freshly appreciated: the old clichés about him are becoming merely old-fashioned.)

In any case, Karajan was a great Brahmsian, and any of his three cycles are highly recommendable. BUT the TESTAMENT CD of the First (coupled with Verklarte Nacht) from Karajan's last London concert that Caliban mentions earlier is a "must have". I, too, was at that event: the only time I attended a Karajan concert - if it were not for the back of the violinist's head at the far right of the cover photograph, I might have made it in soft focus onto a Karajan CD cover I bought the CD a couple of years ago - and took my time before playing it - with some trepidation: supposing memory had distorted what actually happened, and it wasn't actually as good as I'd been remembering?! No problem - if anything, it is better that I'd remembered.

[visualnickmos]

Thank you fhg. Interesting what you say about Karajan, and how he is being reappraised - particularly his music-making. I have actually come quite late to HvK - indeed, mostly due to this new and fresh look at the man and his work, recordings etc.

Love your story about the Brahms and Schoenberg CD! Believe it or not, I spied this in a second-hand CD shop in Montpellier about 3 weeks ago for 2 Euros It now resides with me... It is totally stunning - the horns in the last movement are sheer glory. And the Verklarte Nacht is top-notch beauty as well.

Returning to my question; it is indeed, a 'take your pick' approach, so I'm still no nearer to choosing one! Cat among the pigeons, now - what about Bernstein's DG set? Any views welcome......

This should be good!

[Conchis]

Thank you fhg. Interesting what you say about Karajan, and how he is being reappraised - particularly his music-making. I have actually come quite late to HvK - indeed, mostly due to this new and fresh look at the man and his work, recordings etc.

Love your story about the Brahms and Schoenberg CD! Believe it or not, I spied this in a second-hand CD shop in Montpellier about 3 weeks ago for 2 Euros It now resides with me... It is totally stunning - the horns in the last movement are sheer glory. And the Verklarte Nacht is top-notch beauty as well.

Returning to my question; it is indeed, a 'take your pick' approach, so I'm still no nearer to choosing one! Cat among the pigeons, now - what about Bernstein's DG set? Any views welcome......

This should be good!

The Brahms symphonies on DG were made when Bernstein was at his most idiosyncratic - those who are familiar with his NYPO Tchaikovsky recordings on DG and his BBCSO Enigma Variations will know what I mean. They are very much 'alternative view' interpretations - as an 'only' set they don't hit the mark, unless you're irrevocably wedded to the late Bernstein way of doing things: LB drags things out, deconstructs the orchestration and goes on long, slow hikes to reach the big tunes. You might find them maddening or fascinating, depending on your mood.

Personally, I like them, because i know what to expect and they're a good listen if you feel these works have become over-familiar. But you'll probably want a more 'conventional' set to hand, as well.

[visualnickmos]

The Brahms symphonies on DG were made when Bernstein was at his most idiosyncratic - those who are familiar with his NYPO Tchaikovsky recordings on DG and his BBCSO Enigma Variations will know what I mean. They are very much 'alternative view' interpretations - as an 'only' set they don't hit the mark, unless you're irrevocably wedded to the late Bernstein way of doing things: LB drags things out, deconstructs the orchestration and goes on long, slow hikes to reach the big tunes. You might find them maddening or fascinating, depending on your mood.

Personally, I like them, because i know what to expect and they're a good listen if you feel these works have become over-familiar. But you'll probably want a more 'conventional' set to hand, as well.

Another fascinating viewpoint - which is very much along the lines of mine, in fact; in particular, your mentioning the BBCSO Enigma. I acqiured this some time ago, taking a punt on it at bargain price. Prior to this I had heard only extracts, which as you say were full of his idiosyncratic meanderings, etc. On hearing these excerpts (important, this) I thought "Goodness, this doesn't sound like the way I like my Elgar..... and so on" However on acquiring the CD, and listening to the recording in its entirity, I got a totally different picture. 'Different' - maybe, but the whole thing sounded right.
To me, that is the genius of Bernstein; pleasant surprises. It proves also, that you can't judge a meal on just the vinaigrette, the vegetables, and the custard! Crudely put, I know but you know what I mean... Pretty much the same for Bernstein's Pathetique.

[Barbirollians]

Well, an answer was at least implied in


In other words, "take your pick"!

As Conchis mentions, the '80s recordings don't receive the same plaudits - and the recorded sound on the original releases is a bit murky - but the performances are very special. And the sound isn't "bad" - there seems to be building up a new consensus amongst critics who listen to these performances again after some years, that they are surprised at how much better they are from how they'd been remembered (I've heard three such comments from different commentators to this effect on CD/Record Review in recent months. Karajan's achievement seems to have been neglected by some during his lifetime - now that the man is no longer around to inspire distaste and/or envy, more attention is being focussed on his Music-making, which is being freshly appreciated: the old clichés about him are becoming merely old-fashioned.)

In any case, Karajan was a great Brahmsian, and any of his three cycles are highly recommendable. BUT the TESTAMENT CD of the First (coupled with Verklarte Nacht) from Karajan's last London concert that Caliban mentions earlier is a "must have". I, too, was at that event: the only time I attended a Karajan concert - if it were not for the back of the violinist's head at the far right of the cover photograph, I might have made it in soft focus onto a Karajan CD cover I bought the CD a couple of years ago - and took my time before playing it - with some trepidation: supposing memory had distorted what actually happened, and it wasn't actually as good as I'd been remembering?! No problem - if anything, it is better that I'd remembered.

I consider myself suitably reproved . The 1960s versions appear to be nla except second hand save for the First .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I consider myself suitably reproved . The 1960s versions appear to be nla except second hand save for the First .

That is annoying, isn't it. Of course - there's always:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Herbert-von-Karajan-Complete-1960s/dp/B007IQWQ88

[Barbirollians]

That is annoying, isn't it. Of course - there's always:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Herbert-von.../dp/B007IQWQ88

Found three versions on Amazon of the 1960s although Sir Les Patterson is rude about the remastering of the recordings of Nos 2 and 3 - he might be right but as many of his reviews are such rubbish I thought well worth a chance .

[BBMmk2]

The Brahms symphonies on DG were made when Bernstein was at his most idiosyncratic - those who are familiar with his NYPO Tchaikovsky recordings on DG and his BBCSO Enigma Variations will know what I mean. They are very much 'alternative view' interpretations - as an 'only' set they don't hit the mark, unless you're irrevocably wedded to the late Bernstein way of doing things: LB drags things out, deconstructs the orchestration and goes on long, slow hikes to reach the big tunes. You might find them maddening or fascinating, depending on your mood.

Personally, I like them, because i know what to expect and they're a good listen if you feel these works have become over-familiar. But you'll probably want a more 'conventional' set to hand, as well.

Did you know that Lenny conducted the 'Nimrod' variation in 6 in a bar?

[Beef Oven!]

My Barbirolli VPO Brahms cycle arrived this morning. Played them all through. 2 & 3 are top notch, 1 & 4 are undemonstrative and as such, I will need to listen more - Barbirolli rarely puts a foot wrong and must have had his reasons for such cool performances.

[Barbirollians]

The ragbag of second hand versions of HVK's Brahms symphonies from the 1960s all arrived this morning from an Amazon marketplace seller.

The performance of No1 is lovely . The BPO's playing is quite stunning throughout . The timings are very similar to his RFH live account from October 1988 . The only thing missing is that excellent as the finale is it doesn't quite have the extraordinary electricity of the live RFH account .

Good also to be reunited with his 1972 version of Schumann's overture ,scherzo and finale which I had on a second hand LP back in the day coupled with his Schumann No 2 .

[mikealdren]

No 2 was a real favourite from this cycle although I haven't listened to it for years now as I only have it on LP so I'm interested in how you find it! I have the later digital set and it's never made the same impression.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No 2 was a real favourite from this cycle although I haven't listened to it for years now as I only have it on LP so I'm interested in how you find it! I have the later digital set and it's never made the same impression.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Symphony-2-3-Johannes/dp/B000W99IJ8

... or, if you don't mind "used" (and I'm not sure about the remastering on this release) it can be yours for a penny:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Symphonies-2-3-Johannes/dp/B000001GBU

[pastoralguy]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Symp.../dp/B000W99IJ8

... or, if you don't mind "used" (and I'm not sure about the remastering on this release) it can be yours for a penny:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Symp.../dp/B000001GBU

How times have changed! As a teenager, these recordings were way out my price range in their original DG Lp issues. Many a Saturday morning was spent lusting after them in Rae Mackintosh's shop in South Queensferry Street in Edinburgh. (Which is now a burger bar...)

[mikealdren]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Symp.../dp/B000W99IJ8

... or, if you don't mind "used" (and I'm not sure about the remastering on this release) it can be yours for a penny:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Symp.../dp/B000001GBU

Duly ordered
thanks
Mike
PS I'll post a comparison with the digital version.