Recordings vs Live Performance

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  • aeolium
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 3992

    Recordings vs Live Performance

    Some recent threads, such as the Old Favourites one, have prompted me to wonder whether we are now too obsessed with recordings compared with the experience of live performance, whether through attending concerts/operas or radio broadcasts. Discussion here devoted to recordings hugely outweighs that devoted to R3 or live concerts (except perhaps during the Proms season). And this just reflects the fact that the way most of us experience music day to day is far more through the medium of recording, with attendance at live concerts occasional rather than frequent. But does that mean that we are moving away from the idea of music as a purely live, unrepeatable performance as it has been envisaged down the ages by composers and experienced by most audiences at least until well into the last century? Have we become slaves to the flawless, clean studio recording, unreasonably searching for the perfect performance ("Building a Library")?

    I don't want to knock recordings - how could I? Most of the music I know and love I first heard through recordings. They allow us to hear far more music, including unfamiliar music, than we could simply through going to concerts or listening to broadcasts (even on internet radio). They provide an archive of performances by great musicians of the past, with access to a huge range of different performance styles. But there are downsides. One is that some works simply become too well known - something that could not have been the case in the time of Beethoven - and another is that if a recording is infinitely repeatable it progressively removes any element of unpredictability about the performance, which at least the live performance has.

    When I first got interested in classical music, aeons ago, the excitement of the discovery of the music was everything. I couldn't care who the performers were, indeed I often couldn't remember that. Later on, I became interested in who was performing, started comparing recordings, started putting some on a pedestal and relegating others to outer darkness - essentially, the BaL approach. Now I think that approach is completely wrong. The idea of the perfect performance, particularly of outstanding and complex musical works, seems preposterous. There is always more to discover in these works and to believe that there is only one way, one true path, can shut off the discoveries that can be made by exploring completely different interpretations. I rarely listen to once-favourite recordings now, not least because I feel I know them inside out, every phrase and every inflection. I can't recapture the sense of discovery I had with them. And especially with very well known and frequently broadcast works, I rarely listen to any recordings I have - I'd rather wait for some special event, a live concert or R3 Proms/EIF broadcasts.

    I think we shouldn't forget - particularly those concerned with HIPP - that every studio recording takes us away from the kind of experience that composers would have expected of their audiences, at least up to the early C20 and that one of the advantages of recordings, their repeatability, is also a drawback.
  • ferneyhoughgeliebte
    Gone fishin'
    • Sep 2011
    • 30163

    #2
    A good Live performance in a concert hall of a work written for such an environment is worth a CD collection. The sheer physical presence in every part of your body is something that I cannot replicate in the small rooms in which I have my CD players - and the sense (as aeolie mentions) of being present at a unique occasion brings (to me at any rate) a real feeling of elation: a heightened awareness of being alive.

    BUT - "good" Live performances are few and far between; so many routine concerts can destroy that sense of occasion - and fall well short of favourite recordings (which are also considerably cheaper than most Live events; and, of course there on "demand"). Added to which, so much of my favourite Music doesn't feature in regular concerts - about four fifths (at a wild guess, but one that I don't think is far from the mark) of the Music in my CD collection I have never seen featuring in concert programmes, live or broadcast.

    The financial constraints on concert programmers (that bsp rightly pointed out on the "Proms Rumours" Thread) which leads to reiterated, unadventurous and predictable programmes keep me away from concert halls, and lead me to "vote" for recordings over Live events most days of the month.

    But it's very, very rare for a recording to stick in my memory in ways that memories of good concerts do - and the suspense of waiting for a CD to arrive in the post doesn't come close to the annual eager expectation for events at the Huddersfield Festival.
    Last edited by ferneyhoughgeliebte; 12-04-16, 15:44.
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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    • Hornspieler
      Late Member
      • Sep 2012
      • 1847

      #3
      I posted a very long reply to Aeolium's OP and now it has somehow been deleted.

      Can it be restored, please?

      If it has been lost forever, here is the attachment that I added to the original message #2, indicating my agreement with Aeolium's opinion.

      Help!

      HS

      GRAMOPHONE RECORDING



      This is a part of the musician's life which has changed more than any other over the last fifty
      years -- and in some respects not necessarily for the better.

      When I attended my first recording session in the 1950's, tape recording was virtually
      unknown. It is worth taking a little time to explain the process and what was entailed.
      The sound input from a mixing desk (mono, of course) was cut onto a metal master disk which
      was coated with acetate. The track was literally cut into the surface by a needle on a pick-up
      arm. The only difference between `record' and `replay' was that the sound travelled in the
      opposite direction. Cutting a groove in the disk resulted in a very fine spiral of acetate being
      dragged off by the cutting head and this swarf, as it was called was swept continuous-
      -ly off the surface of the disk by a `swarf brush', which looked just like an ordinary clothes
      brush on a swinging arm. Swarf is highly inflammable and the slightest spark would set it
      off like an old fashioned photographic flash bulb; the result being that the entire surface of the disk would be burned off in a fraction of a second. If, in spite of carefully earthing the
      equipment, this disaster occurred, we had to start the piece again.

      The second problem was that the disk could not be edited, so, if something went wrong or
      someone played a wrong note -- we had to start again at the top! Many a player who had
      brought off a difficult solo passage to his satisfaction, found himself having to do it again,
      because some miscreant made a mess of something in the following bars. Maybe, to our
      soloist's chagrin, it didn't come off quite so well the second time, so one can understand that
      the aforementioned miscreant would certainly be less than popular with his colleagues and might well not be invited to take part in any further sessions.

      However, this state of affairs was beneficial, inasmuch as everyone concentrated really hard to
      get it right first time. There was no question of `we can always do a retake and stitch it in
      later' -- the option was not there and the result was that the finished recording had a
      spontaneity, a feeling of `live' performance which is rarely found on modern recordings.
      Nowadays, with mixing and splicing techniques and even digitisation, it is possible to
      turn a trumpet sound into a clarinet sound, a wrong note into the right note, or to record
      sections of the orchestra in different studios on different days and then join it all together long
      after the musicians have gone home. The result is a reproduction (I refuse to call it a
      performance) which is technically perfect but musically fraudulent. It is now the `Recording
      Manager' who has the final say on how the piece shall sound and one can only hope that at least
      he does so in collaboration with the conductor.

      Modern recording practice may be likened to the old method as one would compare a
      photograph with a portrait. Whilst the first may be more accurate, the second reflects the true
      spirit and character of the subject.

      One unfortunate outcome of the technical advances in recording is that many distinguished
      artists now refuse point-blank to have their concert performances relayed live on radio. Their fear is that private listeners will `tape' their performances on home, (domestic) recording equipment and will then compare it with commercial recordings by a rival artist -- as if it were also a commercial recording; with the facility to replay over and over again that which the artist only had one go at.
      I
      If I appear to be labouring this point, the following (true) story will perhaps reinforce my
      argument:-

      A certain Russian pianist, of moderate reputation, spotted the Recording Manager of a well
      known Record Company and ran over to greet him.

      “I've just heard my recording of the Greig Piano Concerto” he lisped. “Isn't it wonderful?”

      The Recording Manager regarded him with faintly disguised scorn.

      “Yes,” he said. “It is rather good. Don't you wish you could play it like that?”

      I rest my case!
      from "Bravo Maestro" my little Xmas stocking filler.

      Comment

      • vinteuil
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 12815

        #4
        I respect the eloquent case for live music put forward by aeolium.

        There is, of course, a however...

        In most cases, concerts start at 7:30pm. It means dedicating an evening (and expense) to have the experience.

        Nowadays I much prefer spending my evenings at home, in the company of family and friends, food and wine, telly if there's anything good on.

        Throughout the day, I'm free for anything - and most of my music listening takes place then.

        Yes, it's partly the result of age and a preference for comfort - in my young days I attended many cultural events - not least because it was often part of my work. Being retired from that, it's often a joy not to have to go out...

        Sorry for the ramble.... but each case is individual.

        Comment

        • MrGongGong
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 18357

          #5
          Listening strategies


          Simon has lots to say about these things (but most "Classical Music" enthusiasts can't be bothered, which is sad IMV)

          Things like this

          Comment

          • MrGongGong
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 18357

            #6
            Beware of false binaries...........


            (why can't I edit posts anymore?)

            Comment

            • ferneyhoughgeliebte
              Gone fishin'
              • Sep 2011
              • 30163

              #7
              Hornspieler's use of "fraudulent" reminds me of Klemperer's (alleged) response when he was first told about editing; "ein schwindel!"

              This might be a generational thing, but I don't think that there are many people who think in these terms now - most of us have grown up surrounded by electronic sound reproduction - and hear broadcasts and recordings with far greater frequency than Live events. I have different listening expectations for broadcast/recording from those I have for Live events - in much the same way that my expectations are modulated towards whether the live performance is from amateurs or from professionals.

              With a recording, where I cannot see the performers, I tend to listen with sole concern for how well the resulting performance matches with the score - I prefer it to be an aural reproduction of what I can hear as I read. Recordings are often ways of getting to know a work - I can and will interrupt playing a CD in order to listen to a movement (or even a section) over and over again; I don't necessarily care if a recorded performance was done in one take or stitched together from different sessions on different dates, provided that there are no awkward changes of acoustic that makes this obvious. A recording can be utilitarian in ways that concert performances can (and should) never be. I don't think of it as a "fraud", I would describe it as an "artefact" - the better ones with the emphasis on "art", the less successful ones closer to "artificial".

              They are two very different things - both, at their best, treasurable, and I am very grateful to have been alive when so many excellent recordings have made available so much wonderful and otherwise unaccessible Music. I could not have had the sort of life and career that I have had if it hadn't been for recordings.
              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

              Comment

              • aeolium
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 3992

                #8
                I certainly wasn't positing a false binary of the kind "live performance good, recordings bad" - as I made clear, there are lots of good things about recordings. I just wanted to point out some of the drawbacks, which are in some cases also advantages. One is the huge and cheap availability of many high-quality recordings which can make it hard for new young performers to make an impact. And that easy availability and easy repeatability can lead to a staleness of response and even a casual inattention - as Britten said, people can now listen to the Matthew Passion in the bath. Some of the musicians I have most admired have been those who disliked recording - Furtwängler, Curzon, Lupu, Richter - and I'm sure that it was in part (at least with Curzon) the sense that it was making permanent something that ought to have been transitory and changeable, a performance which would never be quite the same the next time.

                There are indeed plenty of good reasons, which have been mentioned, for forgoing live concerts in favour of recordings. I wish concerts and R3 broadcasts would be more adventurous in their programming (TtN tends to be better). But there are other changes that could improve the situation. More live concerts could be broadcast on internet channels round the world, which would increase the range of repertoire available in live broadcasts. More live concerts could be recorded, particularly of HIPP performances - after all, isn't one reason for using period instruments to replicate the edginess and danger involved in playing on instruments like the natural horn? And rather than encouraging people to own masses of digital recordings that they play over and over again, wouldn't it be better to move towards a sort of library access system which would encourage people to explore different performances?

                Comment

                • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                  Gone fishin'
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 30163

                  #9
                  Originally posted by aeolium View Post
                  isn't one reason for using period instruments to replicate the edginess and danger involved in playing on instruments like the natural horn?
                  Well - it can be; but that wouldn't be my principal reason for listening to such performances. Again, whereas I would be more likely to sympathise with a performer when I can see the effort s/he is making (live in concert, or on "film") there is a difference in my ability to tolerate faulty playing - or, for that matter, appreciate excellent playing - if the sound is coming just from two loudspeakers.

                  And rather than encouraging people to own masses of digital recordings that they play over and over again, wouldn't it be better to move towards a sort of library access system which would encourage people to explore different performances?
                  Does it have to be either/or? Why not both approaches?

                  And, having mentioned different attitudes from different generations in my reply to Hs - I freely acknowledge that my response here is also generational. I can well imagine that people even twenty years younger than me (or fewer!) are moving/have moved from a record/CD "collection" to a streaming cloud, closer to the "library access system" you mention here.

                  People will adapt their listening habits to suit their needs and social/work commitments - there will probably be technologies around in thirty years' time that we cannot imagine. The main thing is to ensure that they are able to hear the repertoires in whatever ways they find most convenient.
                  [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                  Comment

                  • french frank
                    Administrator/Moderator
                    • Feb 2007
                    • 30283

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Hornspieler View Post
                    I posted a very long reply to Aeolium's OP and now it has somehow been deleted.

                    Can it be restored, please?
                    I will try to restore it in an appropriate place. - but as far as I can see no one else deleted it!
                    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                    Comment

                    • french frank
                      Administrator/Moderator
                      • Feb 2007
                      • 30283

                      #11
                      Hornspieler's post (which, incidentally, is marked 'Deleted by Hornspieler') minus the attachment which he has copied:

                      A very interesting post, Aeolium.

                      I too, prefer to hear it "as it happened" and not "spring cleaning" it to make the recording that the technical editors and producers decide is correct and accurate, according to their opinion and taste.

                      Yes I've taken part in recording sessions from both sides of the microphone and have to confess that, when producing recordings for the BBC' especially for the BBC Training orchestra, a lot of correction has been needed in order for the moguls at Yalding House are prepared to accept as "fit for transmission".

                      These things will never change and I can only say that, to pass judgement on any performance you have to listen to it How it happens - Coughs, split notes applause between movements - everything.

                      The Proms season is an obvious opportunity, and any live transmission may be subject to a bit of tailoring and adjustment to audio levels and that sort of thing, but interference should end there.

                      You cannot judge an orchestra's worth by listening after the event - not even, I fear on the iPlayer.

                      (I shall post this now, but I shall add to it from my "Bravo Maestro" booklet as an edit.)

                      So watch this space!

                      HS
                      It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                      Comment

                      • aeolium
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 3992

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                        And, having mentioned different attitudes from different generations in my reply to Hs - I freely acknowledge that my response here is also generational. I can well imagine that people even twenty years younger than me (or fewer!) are moving/have moved from a record/CD "collection" to a streaming cloud, closer to the "library access system" you mention here.
                        But is it a generational thing? I am probably from the same generation as you, or perhaps a bit older. I have an LP collection, a CD collection, DVDs, even a fair bit of downloaded music. I find I am rarely playing any of the older discs, and rarely replaying any discs more than once. It just doesn't seem to me now to be a worthwhile form of musical performance, that it should be endlessly repeatable. I like to explore recordings e.g. on the Naxos Music Library, where I can hear music I don't know and music I do know but in unfamiliar performances.

                        Isn't one reason why people sometimes find concert performances routine that they have been spoilt by recordings with top orchestras and soloists (often studio edited so free from the perils of live performance)? And does the fantastic nit-picking by at least some BaL reviewers, soaked in studio recordings, do a service to aspiring young musicians or inhibit spontaneity as opposed to mechanical perfection? It certainly seems that there was much greater variety of personality, and perhaps risk-taking, among artists in the earlier recording age than there is now.

                        Comment

                        • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                          Gone fishin'
                          • Sep 2011
                          • 30163

                          #13
                          Originally posted by aeolium View Post
                          But is it a generational thing? I am probably from the same generation as you, or perhaps a bit older. I have an LP collection, a CD collection, DVDs, even a fair bit of downloaded music. I find I am rarely playing any of the older discs, and rarely replaying any discs more than once. It just doesn't seem to me now to be a worthwhile form of musical performance, that it should be endlessly repeatable. I like to explore recordings e.g. on the Naxos Music Library, where I can hear music I don't know and music I do know but in unfamiliar performances.
                          Ah - I am devoted to my CD collection - I use spotify only to help me select which recordings I'm going to buy; but I do use youTube to explore Musics I've not previously encountered. In that case, youTube supplies me with what Radio3 used to - rather than taking up CD playing opportunities. You are more in sync with the way listening trends are going than I am.

                          Isn't one reason why people sometimes find concert performances routine that they have been spoilt by recordings with top orchestras and soloists (often studio edited so free from the perils of live performance)?
                          It might well do so for some/any concert-goers, but I get the sense that for many orchestral Musicians, their fourth performance of Scheherazade that week, with insufficient rehearsal time leads to a routine play-through. I couldn't in all conscience be a professional concert critic these days (not that anyone was asking, you understand) simply because so many performances have not been able to devote the time that the performers themselves would wish to spend working on the "sparkle", through no fault of their own - they simply haven't the financial security to afford such "luxuries".

                          And does the fantastic nit-picking by at least some BaL reviewers, soaked in studio recordings, do a service to aspiring young musicians or inhibit spontaneity as opposed to mechanical perfection? It certainly seems that there was much greater variety of personality, and perhaps risk-taking, among artists in the earlier recording age than there is now.
                          But there are more people being recorded now; there are still astonishing performers emerging all the time (Trifonov, Denk immediately rush to my mind) who have personality by the bucketsful making recordings that join the best of the past. I reckon there were as many polite "mechanicals" in the 30s, 50s, whatevers around as there are now - it's just that they weren't let into recording studios. Critics are losing their influence, too - in the past year, I have bought three CDs after having listened to BaL - only one of which was the "chosen one"! I've bought many, many more discs as a result of reading the opinions of others on the Forum. It's a risky business, predicting the future of Music - but as we like risk-taking, I'll hazard a guess that the internet will be the principal medium/"carrier" for Music; if it isn't already.
                          [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

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                          • doversoul1
                            Ex Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 7132

                            #14
                            Hornspiele
                            I too, prefer to hear it "as it happened" and not "spring cleaning" it to make the recording that the technical editors and producers decide is correct and accurate, according to their opinion and taste.

                            Yes I've taken part in recording sessions from both sides of the microphone and have to confess that, when producing recordings for the BBC' especially for the BBC Training orchestra, a lot of correction has been needed in order for the moguls at Yalding House are prepared to accept as "fit for transmission".

                            These things will never change and I can only say that, to pass judgement on any performance you have to listen to it How it happens - Coughs, split notes applause between movements - everything
                            .
                            I think this is very unfair to both performers and the listeners who are unable to attend live concerts for various reasons or prefer to listen at home. I am one of them. Am I listening to something grossed-up with no genuine musical value? And as for performers, from many videos that are available on Presto Classical site, I have an impression that the performers are creating something different from the music performed live, and are committing it onto the recording.

                            Coincidentally, I posted this on the Early Music board about the Vivaldi concert broadcast on Sunday.

                            This was a thoroughly enjoyable concert. There’s something about Vivaldi performed live. It reminds me that his (instrumental) music was meant to be 'performed'.


                            All the same, I treasure all those excellent Vivaldi recordings by many soloists and ensembles, and am never tired of listening to them.

                            Comment

                            • richardfinegold
                              Full Member
                              • Sep 2012
                              • 7666

                              #15
                              I probably don't have much to add to the pro and cons expressed here. Recordings are a fact of life. I can't carry Maurizio Pollini in my pocket and ask him to perform for me every time that I am in the mood for Chopin's Etudes so I will have to rely upon the imperfections of a recording to approximate the live experience.
                              Certainly coming to music first via recordings has had some unpleasant byproducts. I had heard many recordings of Violin Concertos featuring Heifetz, Issac Stern, Oistrakh, etc before ever hearing one in Concert. Most of these recordings had the soloist miked so loud that he appeared to be in the room with me with the rest of the band trapped somewhere in the speakers. Everytime I hear a VC in Concert no matter who is playing they always sound underpowered to me because I have been so conditioned as to what a soloist should sound like via recordings. Can't be helped

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