Clemens Krauss

[Beef Oven!]

Or be bonked therefrom. These guys were total shits - our species (and, in particular, the male sex) at its very worst.

Hats off to Erich Kleiber, Adolf Busch, Fritz Busch and other non-Jews who refused to play ball with the third Reich and shame on Clemens Krauss, Elizabeth Scwartzkopf, Herbert vin Karajan, Richard Strauss, Wilhelm Furtwangler et al.

Special mention for the Italian Toscanini who wasn't having any of all this.

[cloughie]

Well, I dunno about Ferretf, but they weren't around in the shops that I looked in, nor do I remember them being in the library stocks. But also, having encountered the Eclipse recordings, I blamed the Music not the recording, and so avoided the repertoire altogether. It took my admiration for Herbie to persuade me to listen to it at all - and thereafter ...

That'll be it then ferney, you were in a state of eclipse, the Reiner Victrolas were there, you just didn't care!

[Barbirollians]

Artificial stereo sounds grim . I can imagine that misrepresented the performances appallingly.

I have to admit not having very much of HVK conducting R Strauss indeed I think I have only the Metamorphosen ,Oboe Concerto and Four Last Songs disc with Janowitz - which is of course magnificent.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Hats off to Erich Kleiber, Adolf Busch, Fritz Busch and other non-Jews who refused to play ball with the third Reich and shame on Clemens Krauss, Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, Herbert von Karajan, Richard Strauss, Wilhelm Furtwangler et al.

Special mention for the Italian Toscanini who wasn't having any of all this.

Oooh, isn't it delightful that none of us on this forum can ever be placed in the exactly same situation? We might then have found out exactly how well, or how badly, we would have done in comparison with these so obviously and despicably clay-footed gods and goddesses...

Let's just be grateful for this mercy, and SHUT UP!

[Beef Oven!]

Oooh, isn't it delightful that none of us on this forum can ever be placed in the exactly same situation? We might then have found out exactly how well, or how badly, we would have done in comparison with these so obviously and despicably clay-footed gods and goddesses...

Let's just be grateful for this mercy, and SHUT UP!

I know exactly what I would have done if I were exactly in their position. The difference between right and wrong, and good evil is easy to know. Don't make excuses.

[Ferretfancy]

Well, I dunno about Ferretf, but they weren't around in the shops that I looked in, nor do I remember them being in the library stocks. But also, having encountered the Eclipse recordings, I blamed the Music not the recording, and so avoided the repertoire altogether. It took my admiration for Herbie to persuade me to listen to it at all - and thereafter ...

I think Cloughie has the wrong man re Eclipse and Victrola issues, as I have not mentioned them. Just for the record my first encounter with the Clemens Krauss recordings of Richard Strauss was on the LXT issues on Decca, especially the magnificent performance of Aus Italien.

The constant and tiresome interventions by you know who reminds me of the clerihew

The Empress Poppaea
Was rather a dear
Only no one could stop her
From being improper.

[Barbirollians]

I think Cloughie has the wrong man re Eclipse and Victrola issues, as I have not mentioned them. Just for the record my first encounter with the Clemens Krauss recordings of Richard Strauss was on the LXT issues on Decca, especially the magnificent performance of Aus Italien.

The constant and tiresome interventions by you know who reminds me of the clerihew

The Empress Poppaea
Was rather a dear
Only no one could stop her
From being improper.

I haven't got as far as the Aus Italien . I am looking forward to it .

[LeMartinPecheur]

I know exactly what I would have done if I were exactly in their position. The difference between right and wrong, and good evil is easy to know. Don't make excuses.

Yes, easy enough to know, but to quote teamsaint, "From the safest places come the bravest words."

[cloughie]

I think Cloughie has the wrong man re Eclipse and Victrola issues, as I have not mentioned them. Just for the record my first encounter with the Clemens Krauss recordings of Richard Strauss was on the LXT issues on Decca, especially the magnificent performance of Aus Italien.

The constant and tiresome interventions by you know who reminds me of the clerihew

The Empress Poppaea
Was rather a dear
Only no one could stop her
From being improper.

You absolutely correct and I think I amended my post too late for Hawkeye Ferney to take me to task. Sorry Ferret. Just for the record how did you rate the Krauss LXTs cf Reiner's RCAs.

[Beef Oven!]

Yes, easy enough to know, but to quote teamsaint, "From the safest places come the bravest words."

You must speak for yourself on this matter. Some May not be confident about their tussle between cravenness and rectitude, many of us are not so afflicted. Innumerable acts of rectitude were carried out by ordinary people during the third Reich's tyranny, you should have more faith.

And what have brave words and safe places got to do with, for example, Clemens Krauss' odious behaviour?

There he was in his music director job at the Vienna Philharmonic when the 'prestigious' job came up at the Berlin State Opera, because Erich Kleiber had resigned in protest against Nazi policies. He took over preparations of Arabella when the non Jewish, anti-Nazi conductor Fritz Busch quit in protest.

In my opinion, what he did was immoral and entirely avoidable.

He only abandoned Germany and returned to Vienna when his music theatre in Munich where he was now working, was bombed out by the allies.

What he did in assisting a number of Jews to flee the Third Reich must be considered as mitigation, not a proxy for his moral behaviour.

The the Nazi Third Reich could not have come about as the evil regime that it was, with purely the support and actions of the 'strict Nazi adherents', xenophobes and virulent antisemites.

Rather than quoting teamsaint's signature of brave words coming from the safest places, try Simon Wiesenthal's words..... " for evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing".

[ahinton]

Rather than quoting teamsaint's signature of brave words coming from the safest places, try Simon Wiesenthal's words..... " for evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing".

They weren't his words, though; he was only quoting them (which does not, of course, undermine their significance); whilst their origin remains uncertain, they're been attributed to several, probably most famously Edmund Burke.

[Hornspieler]

I know exactly what I would have done if I were exactly in their position. The difference between right and wrong, and good evil is easy to know. Don't make excuses.

No you don't, Beefy - and neither would I have done.

Since you are steadfastly refusing to keep politics out of this subject, I have no option but to put you into my "Room 101"

and adding you to my barred list. A pity that you cannot let past history remain just that.

Hornspieler


BTW: As an eight year-old in 1940, I remember running down the road with machine gun bullets from a low flying Heinkel bouncing off the pavement around me, but it hasn't stopped me from travelling in a Dornier airliner to Munich with Lufthansa.

[Beef Oven!]

No you don't, Beefy - and neither would I have done.

Since you are steadfastly refusing to keep politics out of this subject, I have no option but to put you into my "Room 101"

and adding you to my barred list. A pity that you cannot let past history remain just that.

Hornspieler


BTW: As an eight year-old in 1940, I remember running down the road with machine gun bullets from a low flying Heinkel bouncing off the pavement around me, but it hasn't stopped me from travelling in a Dornier airliner to Munich with Lufthansa.

I think that you have missed the point. I am very pleased to have Krauss in my collection and enjoy his music very much, because I leave politics and personal circumstances out of music. There are reasons why some things aren't forgotten about and left as history, no matter what aeroplanes you use. I can't be bothered to explain the rest.

[Beef Oven!]

They weren't his words, though; he was only quoting them (which does not, of course, undermine their significance); whilst their origin remains uncertain, they're been attributed to several, probably most famously Edmund Burke.

Edmund Burke? Then won't it be out of copyright, leaving the way paved for teamsaint?

[teamsaint]

Edmund Burke? Then won't it be out of copyright, leaving the way paved for teamsaint?

And quoted by me of course from a wonderful musician, Adrian Borland, who certainly wouldn't have wanted politics kept out of his music,and who wrote one of THE great anti war songs .