Gramophone

[jayne lee wilson]

When you say earlier HIPP, how far back are you going? Certainly some of the VCM Harnoncourt and Collegium Aureum recordings, even if well played had a rather dreary sound - this could have been the instruments or the recordings - or are you suggesting that maybe the 80s recordings by LCP Norrington or EC Gardiner have not weathered well? Perhaps they were not HIPP enough?

How far back indeed.... I've bought a lot of Telemann Suites, and the 1967/1980 Das Alte Werk set of some TWV 55s with VCM/Harnoncourt/Bruggen (recorder), are still a huge favourite, very hard to improve upon.... the instruments are a joy in themselves and the recordings lovely too. (CD - 1994).
Interestingly enough, it's the 1967 recordings that have the richer, more sensuous string sound; by 1980 Harnoncourt evidently wanted more gut and sinew!

...For that matter the Collegium Aureum Rameau Suites from Dardanus and Les Indes Galantes (1964/1967!) on DHM (first Rameau CD I ever bought) are a little too grandly-sonorous and moderately-paced for my own present taste, but beautifully played-and-recorded and still a splendid listen. (CD - 1995).

(now THERE's something to look up early reviews of...!)

[cloughie]

How far back indeed.... I've bought a lot of Telemann Suites, and the 1967/1980 Das Alte Werk set of some TWV 55s with VCM/Harnoncourt/Bruggen (recorder), are still a huge favourite, very hard to improve upon.... the instruments are a joy in themselves and the recordings lovely too. (CD - 1994).
Interestingly enough, it's the 1967 recordings that have the richer, more sensuous string sound; by 1980 Harnoncourt evidently wanted more gut and sinew!

...For that matter the Collegium Aureum Rameau Suites from Dardanus and Les Indes Galantes (1964/1967!) on DHM (first Rameau CD I ever bought) are a little too grandly-sonorous and moderately-paced for my own present taste, but beautifully played-and-recorded and still a splendid listen. (CD - 1995).

(now THERE's something to look up early reviews of...!)

Interesting comments, Jayne. Late sixties recordings of many things - HIPP or otherwise - produced wonderful sounds. I think that it is gut and sinew that puts me off many HIPP recordings, and knowing that a more modern sound is available makes me think I'd rather have the ASMF or ECO sound than many HIPP ensembles but then I do like EC Pinnock and LCP Norrington in Mozart, the latter's Sym 39 is still a breath of fresh air 20 odd plus years on. The best HIPP is refreshing, the worst cat gut and scrapey is dreary, and fortepianos many times leave me wanting a more fulfilling sound. Mozart PC27 I want Gilels not Bilson.

[Richard Barrett]

knowing that a more modern sound is available

- ie. basically an early 20th century sound, as opposed to an even more modern because historically-informed sound! (sorry, I know this isn't the thread topic, I couldn't help myself)

[cloughie]

- ie. basically an early 20th century sound, as opposed to an even more modern because historically-informed sound! (sorry, I know this isn't the thread topic, I couldn't help myself)

No I think, a mid 20th century sound - ASMF Marriner and ECO Leppard and co had considerably brightened and lightened the interpretation of Baroque stuff - would you belittle the contributions of George Malcolm and Thurston Dart and the Loveday Marriner 4 Seasons was groundbreaking at the time of its release - is it so hip to be HIPP?

[Richard Barrett]

No I think, a mid 20th century sound

OK a mid 20th century sound - I'm not belittling anything, just suggesting that the use of the word "modern" is misleading here. Historically informed performance (the clue is in the name) isn't about going back to the past, but about taking history seriously in the present day, instead of assuming it can be improved on by more or less ignoring it. The people you mention made tentative steps in that direction, to be sure.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

No I think, a mid 20th century sound - ASMF Marriner and ECO Leppard and co had considerably brightened and lightened the interpretation of Baroque stuff - would you belittle the contributions of George Malcolm and Thurston Dart and the Loveday Marriner 4 Seasons was groundbreaking at the time of its release - is it so hip to be HIPP?

[mathias broucek]

Just downloaded my e-copy of March's issue.

Grateful for the heads-up that ALL Horst Stein's OSR Sibelius has been reissued on Eloquence (3 CD). I've long cherished his Legends and Night Ride. Looking forward to hearing the rest. And only £12 on marketplace

[jayne lee wilson]

No I think, a mid 20th century sound - ASMF Marriner and ECO Leppard and co had considerably brightened and lightened the interpretation of Baroque stuff - would you belittle the contributions of George Malcolm and Thurston Dart and the Loveday Marriner 4 Seasons was groundbreaking at the time of its release - is it so hip to be HIPP?

Ah, the mysteries of preference..... listening to some of those performers turned me off baroque initially - so sweet and polite alongside Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg! Well, the ardent foolishness of youth etc., but it was only when I heard the Aureum, O.18thC, VCM, Akademie fur Alte Musik, etc, that I finally began to get Baroque, and it was that guttier, almost percussive string sound, those bright and mellow, colourful and earthy winds that so excited me. Out of the museum - quick, not dead!

Spinning this thread back to reviewing quality, one of the last IRR-reviewed CDs I sent back (to Paris! after 4 days trying, miserably, to find enjoyment in it..) was a modern-instrument version of CPE Bach's Berlin Symphonies (Lausanne CO/Zacharias, MDG). Given an outstanding review flag, to me it sounded more like background music for a film about The Stately Homes of England...

(Then, the Gramophone arrived... with Richard Wigmore criticizing it for similar reasons (doh!), and "modern instruments impose a veneer of suavity on CPE's invention")...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ah, the mysteries of preference..... listening to some of those performers turned me off baroque initially - so sweet and polite alongside Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg! Well, the ardent foolishness of youth etc., but it was only when I heard the Aureum, O.18thC, VCM, Akademie fur Alte Musik, etc, that I finally began to get Baroque, and it was that guttier, almost percussive string sound, those bright and mellow, colourful and earthy winds that so excited me. Out of the museum - quick, not dead!

- that was exactly my initial reaction to Baroque Music, too. I just didn't like listening to it (and with Bach, there was a real disjunct between what I read and how it sounded in performances) in those "intermediary" recordings - ASMF, I Musici, ECO. The joy when HIPP finally hit home - a great discovery of a new world: not to mention the composers that the new performers were discovering!

Nowadays, whilst I (much!) prefer HIP performances, I can revel in Baroque performances on the biggest ensembles of modern instruments (Furtwangler, Klemperer, Karajan - all creating such a different sound world that it's practically a Stokowskian transcription) - but those "middle-way" performances still leave me cold, alas.

[Beef Oven!]

- that was exactly my initial reaction to Baroque Music, too. I just didn't like listening to it (and with Bach, there was a real disjunct between what I read and how it sounded in performances) in those "intermediary" recordings - ASMF, I Musici, ECO. The joy when HIPP finally hit home - a great discovery of a new world: not to mention the composers that the new performers were discovering!

Nowadays, whilst I (much!) prefer HIP performances, I can revel in Baroque performances on the biggest ensembles of modern instruments (Furtwangler, Klemperer, Karajan - all creating such a different sound world that it's practically a Stokowskian transcription) - but those "middle-way" performances still leave me cold, alas.

Mine too, and early music in general.

The band that really snapped it into focus for me is Il Giardino Armonico - a real kick-ass, take no prisoners band!!

.......... especially this box-set that can be had very reasonably priced

[cloughie]

- that was exactly my initial reaction to Baroque Music, too. I just didn't like listening to it (and with Bach, there was a real disjunct between what I read and how it sounded in performances) in those "intermediary" recordings - ASMF, I Musici, ECO. The joy when HIPP finally hit home - a great discovery of a new world: not to mention the composers that the new performers were discovering!

Nowadays, whilst I (much!) prefer HIP performances, I can revel in Baroque performances on the biggest ensembles of modern instruments (Furtwangler, Klemperer, Karajan - all creating such a different sound world that it's practically a Stokowskian transcription) - but those "middle-way" performances still leave me cold, alas.

I know it's illogical because it denies the value of going back to how the instruments sounded in Baroque times but when I hear many HIPP string sounds it seems strange that the record receiving public should want this scrapey sound when record companies back in the fifties did so much to improve the recorded sound of strings. But it comes down to personal choice - do you prefer Bach's keyboard concerti on harpsichord, fortepiano or pianoforte and the matching body of string sound to accompany. Stokowski's Bach is good fun, Karajan's big band gloss - again quite a listening pleasure, Klemperer shows what can be done if you have the time and a big orchestra.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I know it's illogical ... But it comes down to personal choice -

- there is nothing "logical" about my dislike of that ASMF Four Seasons - especially when so many people's enthusiasm set me up to enjoy it. But the "tang" of period instruments (so many different "flavours" - only Maksymiuk's Polish Chamber Orchestra got close using moderner instruments) and the zing of their kick-ass attitude (thank you, Mr BeefO!) ... something I relish!

[Richard Barrett]

strange that the record receiving public should want this scrapey sound when record companies back in the fifties did so much to improve the recorded sound of strings

I don't really understand what you're saying here. Surely the best recordings from all periods are those which capture the sound of the instruments as accurately as possible, not as "unscrapey" as possible. Also I don't recognise "scrapey" as applied to HIPP string playing. One particularly attractive (and indeed "modern") aspect of it is that colour and timbre are so varied. I think one reason Jayne and others found baroque music hard to take on "modern" instruments was the homogeneous, standardised, inexpressive sound.

[ahinton]

Also I don't recognise "scrapey" as applied to HIPP string playing.

Me neither; I thought that it was a disease found in sheep.

[cloughie]

I don't really understand what you're saying here. Surely the best recordings from all periods are those which capture the sound of the instruments as accurately as possible, not as "unscrapey" as possible. Also I don't recognise "scrapey" as applied to HIPP string playing. One particularly attractive (and indeed "modern") aspect of it is that colour and timbre are so varied. I think one reason Jayne and others found baroque music hard to take on "modern" instruments was the homogeneous, standardised, inexpressive sound.

What I'm saying is that 78s and early LPs did not always capture good string sounds. Try early Munchinger recordings for instance, try Jorda's New World - the look at the 1960s Decca recordings eg Kertesz's New World or Munchinger's recording of Romantic Overtures. A better less spiky string sound was captured. Personal choice yes but I'm not keen on thin strings for prolonged periods of time! It's the sound not the skill of players I'm talking about - the personal choice of what hits my ears over what hits yours.