Gramophone

[Richard Barrett]

Funny how what Gramophone (and the Penguin Guide) said about a recording quickly became the received opinion of the disc.

Yes, we all have the experience of our first recording of some work or other having sentimental value which we might rationalise into some inherent specialness; this phenomenon, back in the day of specialist reviewers of a certain generation and their voice of published authority, had a tendency to create a canon of approved recordings (and works!) which was very hard to shift. As witness, the protracted time it took for HIPP recordings of the "classics" to gain a place within the "recommended recordings" against competition from acres of approved symphonic stodge. I used to like the level of detail in the old Gramophone reviews (and references to bar numbers in the score!) and I no doubt learned a lot from them, but I much prefer to read a discussion on some new recording in a place like this.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The danger, of course, was always that such opinions were not revised often enough in the light - or darkness - of later new releases... but without some kind of broadbased, wideranging publication, how do you know about them?

Through broadband-based publication - cheaper, and with the added value of having a recommendation by one contributor roundly damned by another. The heated discussions that follow, and the criteria that each contributor applies to their judgement, is far more valuable than the single opinings of any individual.

Take this as a compliment, jayne - I pay as much attention to what you say on the Forum as I did back in t'day when I read RO or MEO in Gramophone.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Has anyone here ever really benefited from an (often anonymous) Amazon reviewer?

Yes - me; that's why I also contribute my responses to a recording/book/wha'evva

I don't think I ever have. It's usually all too obvious why their opinions can't be trusted.

Well, exactly - one can quickly discount not only the nutters but also contributors from their responses to other recordings/books/wha'evva. If someone whose responses to a recording have corresponded to my own (submitted online or not) then I will trust them when they discuss one that I don't know. (Exactly the same as with Gramophone). If an Amazon review discusses Musical features, pointing out matters of tempo, dynamics, balance, expo repeats, order of Movements etc, I take very close notice - if it's just "My mum really liked this", then they can be ignored quickly - and with no financial loss.

[Don Petter]

Some Amazon reviews give very comprehensive discographical information, which can be invaluable.

[Pulcinella]

The March edition has just dropped through the letterbox.
Record of the month is the Hyperion Isserlis Elgar/Walton cello coupling: very much liked, but can I really justify buying it?
(Perhaps this needs to be on the New releases thread?)

[Beef Oven!]

Yes - me; that's why I also contribute my responses to a recording/book/wha'evva


Well, exactly - one can quickly discount not only the nutters but also contributors from their responses to other recordings/books/wha'evva. If someone whose responses to a recording have corresponded to my own (submitted online or not) then I will trust them when they discuss one that I don't know. (Exactly the same as with Gramophone). If an Amazon review discusses Musical features, pointing out matters of tempo, dynamics, balance, expo repeats, order of Movements etc, I take very close notice - if it's just "My mum really liked this", then they can be ignored quickly - and with no financial loss.

I find the Amazon reviews very helpful in all sorts of ways - it's very easy to sort the chaff from the wheat, as well.

I have gotten information that couldn't be had anywhere else, and most importantly, there are some very good reviewers/reviews on there.

Many of the good steers that I've had on recordings have come from there.

Like with a lot of things, I never rely on one source to get the information/advice/steer that I need.

I think Jayne is way off the mark with her question "has anyone here ever really benefited from an (often anonymous) Amazon review?''

[Pulcinella]

I find the Amazon reviews very helpful in all sorts of ways - it's very easy to sort the chaff from the wheat, as well.

I have gotten information that couldn't be had anywhere else, and most importantly, there are some very good reviewers/reviews on there.

Many of the good steers that I've had on recordings have come from there.

Like with a lot of things, I never rely on one source to get the information/advice/steer that I need.

I think Jayne is way off the mark with her question "has anyone here ever really benefited from an (often anonymous) Amazon review?''

[Lordgeous]

The Gramophone's greatest strength to me is it's fantastic archive database of reviews (though not so attractive since they changed the format). I subscribed for a year, which was useful, but like others I find the quality and scholarship of recent reviews disappointing compared with the 'golden days'. I also had hundreds of physical copies of the magazine (going back to the mid 1940s) which I sadly had to dispose of due to space limitations. I find Amazon reviews quite useful in the main - some are quite scholarly and informative - and this forum has alerted me to many fine performances that I otherwise would have missed. Thanks guys!

[jayne lee wilson]

I find the Amazon reviews very helpful in all sorts of ways - it's very easy to sort the chaff from the wheat, as well.

I have gotten information that couldn't be had anywhere else, and most importantly, there are some very good reviewers/reviews on there.

Many of the good steers that I've had on recordings have come from there.

Like with a lot of things, I never rely on one source to get the information/advice/steer that I need.

I think Jayne is way off the mark with her question "has anyone here ever really benefited from an (often anonymous) Amazon review?''

Oh Beef, really - you are a one aren't ya? - I asked a question and gave my own answer. Great to see others' different ideas since. But amazon-anonyme can be terribly - and sometimes subtly - misleading. How many people (who would have loved it, trust me) were put off that standard-setting Dantone Haydn set by that vastly lengthy, minutely-detailed and utterly, appallingly inaccurate review there? It was all the worse for sounding like they did know what they were talking about - unless... you'd heard it for yourself, and not via a lossy codec(**). Sad to say those of us who insist on finding out for ourselves frequently have this experience...

But yeah, can't turn the clock back... c'est la vie.

((**) quick nod to streaming services which can help subvert sweeping opinionation, if not offering the possibilty of true critical appraisal)...

[Beef Oven!]

Oh Beef, really - you are a one aren't ya? - I asked a question and gave my own answer. Great to see others' different ideas since. But amazon-anonyme can be terribly - and sometimes subtly - misleading. How many people (who would have loved it, trust me) were put off that standard-setting Dantone Haydn set by that vastly lengthy, minutely-detailed and utterly, appallingly inaccurate review there? It was all the worse for sounding like they did know what they were talking about - unless... you'd heard it for yourself, and not via a lossy codec(**). Sad to say those of us who insist on finding out for ourselves frequently have this experience...

But yeah, can't turn the clock back... c'est la vie.

((**) quick nod to streaming services which can help subvert sweeping opinionation, if not offering the possibilty of true critical appraisal)...

I agree with you that some Amazon reviews can be misleading, and the Dantone Haydn example you give is a good one - but I would imagine that most of us on this forum can see through all that; and I'm really only thinking about this community and what we use to help us decide what music to buy.

[ahinton]

If an Amazon review discusses Musical features, pointing out matters of tempo, dynamics, balance, expo repeats, order of Movements etc

I really cannot imagine for the life of me what music you mighr be referring to by those issues that I have boldfaced above!...

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, we all have the experience of our first recording of some work or other having sentimental value which we might rationalise into some inherent specialness; this phenomenon, back in the day of specialist reviewers of a certain generation and their voice of published authority, had a tendency to create a canon of approved recordings (and works!) which was very hard to shift. As witness, the protracted time it took for HIPP recordings of the "classics" to gain a place within the "recommended recordings" against competition from acres of approved symphonic stodge. I used to like the level of detail in the old Gramophone reviews (and references to bar numbers in the score!) and I no doubt learned a lot from them, but I much prefer to read a discussion on some new recording in a place like this.

Canonical crystallisation can be a problem as I noted - but Norrington won a G. award in 10/87 for his Beethoven 2&8 (Harnoncourt's complete COE cycle won a few years later), Gardiner's Bach B Minor was already a top recommendation, and his Mozart Concertos with Bilson were well-received from the get-go (RG, 4/84, with an extra technical note on the acoustic from Geoffrey Horn about... "a continuous murmur of traffic noise in k.271" ....)
Bruggen and Hogwood were positively reviewed throughout the mid-late 80s for their Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn; Hogwood's set of the Mozart Salzburg Symphonies was greeted as a "milestone" with "enthusiasm and delight" by Stanley Sadie as early as 12/79...

I think many here will recall their excitement at RO's review of Bruggen's "gunpowder-keg" Eroica (11/88) "defiant, explosive, unpredictable"!

[mikealdren]

Norrington won a G. award in 10/87 for his Beethoven 2&8 (Harnoncourt's complete COE cycle won a few years later), Gardiner's Bach B Minor was already a top recommendation, and his Mozart Concertos with Bilson were well-received from the get-go (RG, 4/84, with an extra technical note on the acoustic from Geoffrey Horn about... "a continuous murmur of traffic noise in k.271" ....)
Bruggen and Hogwood were positively reviewed throughout the mid-late 80s for their Beethoven, Mozart and Haydn; Hogwood's set of the Mozart Salzburg Symphonies was greeted as a "milestone" with "enthusiasm and delight" by Stanley Sadie as early as 12/79...

I think many here will recall their excitement at RO's review of Bruggen's "gunpowder-keg" Eroica (11/88) "defiant, explosive, unpredictable"!

Not only that, many of the earlier HIPP, despite their best intentions, were really not very good and they have not stood the test of time. It's amazing how HIPP performances have not only influenced our view of earlier music but also how much HIPP itself has evolved.

Mike

[cloughie]

Not only that, many of the earlier HIPP, despite their best intentions, were really not very good and they have not stood the test of time. It's amazing how HIPP performances have not only influenced our view of earlier music but also how much HIPP itself has evolved.

Mike

When you say earlier HIPP, how far back are you going? Certainly some of the VCM Harnoncourt and Collegium Aureum recordings, even if well played had a rather dreary sound - this could have been the instruments or the recordings - or are you suggesting that maybe the 80s recordings by LCP Norrington or EC Gardiner have not weathered well? Perhaps they were not HIPP enough?

[Richard Barrett]

Not only that, many of the earlier HIPP, despite their best intentions, were really not very good and they have not stood the test of time

I knew someone was going to say that but I don't think it's any more true of HIPP recordings than it is of non-HIPP ones. While there has certainly been evolution, so there also has in traditional styles of performance, and not only in the direction of improvement. I think there are very many HIPP recordings from the 1970s (to include all periods of music) which are still very much worth listening to. How long is the "test of time" supposed to take?