Record Review 2/1/16

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The alternative to OVPP isn't The Huddersfield Choral Society. Notwithstanding Parrott's known views, I would suggest that pragmatism played a more important part in Bach's use of performers, pitch, temperaments, etc, etc, than modern scholarship would allow.

Do read Parrott's book again, ardy - "pragmatism" features throughout, and it's a very easy read (and informative vastly beyond its central "remit").

I dare say he would have loved a 16 - 20 sized choir if it sang with expertise and could be fitted into his performing space.

Well "dared" - but that is not the purpose of Parrott's research. (And the same claim could be made of Haydn's String Quartets played by a string orchestra. There are those who prefer Beethoven's late Quartets played like this - just as, I suppose, there must be people who prefer to mix their Lagavulin with Cola.) Parrott makes clear that he is not hostile to larger choirs singing this repertoire - not even the Huddersfield Choral Society, whom he specifically mentions. His book merely presents the evidence that shows that Bach and most of his contemporary compatriots imagined their choral Music being presented by solo voices - with a view to defend such sneers as "the 'B minor Madrigal' <chortle><chortle>" . The book is over 200 pages long - so for JEGgers to say that there isn't any evidence demonstrates his own prejudices and narrow-mindedness; negative features that are refreshingly absent from Parrott's book.

[Nick Armstrong]

Caught up this morning and enjoyed it although I remain sadly impervious to much of the selected music.

Fun to hear DON; and indeed SMP impressed as being worth far more than some of the rôles forced on her by the R3 régime e.g. serving Breakfast. However, she does still seem to have a tendency to say everything's 'wonderful wonderful brilliant stunning' - I'd be reassured if one ever heard her be anything less than 'blown away' by everything.

Not at all convinced by the JEG Bach extract played - it actually had the sort of desiccated, driven, chugging quality that made it sound as if it had been rearranged by Martland or Nyman....

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Does anyone have views about JEG's latest B Minor Mass, of which the Credo was played at the end of the programme? It displayed the usual technical clarity from his players, but I will not be rushing out to buy it. The acoustic of the recording was quite 'dry' which meant that the exaggerated articulation of string playing (short and choppy) was not rounded off by any sort of natural bloom. The choir (deft and accurate as ever) sounded even stranger. The tenors were very straight (even a bit harsh-sounding at times) whilst the basses sang more soloistically making the blend , especially of the loud bits, rather odd. In general, the ensemble sounded very lovely in the slow and quiet sections, and while tempo and dynamic contrasts are very necessary in the Credo, Jeggers made some very over-hyped gestures. Our Lord was blasted off to the higher realms via a space-rocket at the 'et resurrexit', and if my words sound a tad blasphemous, the effect was too. Jeggers is usually a stickler for strict tempi but it was my impression that having started off the lovely, 'et in spiritum' at a fair old lick, he allowed it to slow down (to a more reasonable pace, IMO) as the bass soloist got going.

I do like proper choral versions of the B Minor...I was amused by JEG's reported comment that he did not like the 'B Minor Madgrigal' which results from OVPP performances.....but I'll stick with my Herreweghe one. (Can't remember which without going to look.)

I can find no fault with the singing, but I'm not happy about the policy of pushing solo voices forward. Many Decca recordings from the 1960s have far greater depth.

[jayne lee wilson]

Jayne Lee Wilson. do you listen on Spotify, at all? Because, before I buy a recording, that's how I do these things nowadays, how do you get along with this?

No, I don't use any streaming services, I just listen to the excerpts offered by the sites I buy downloads from. I've noticed that all these services differ in sound quality themselves, even at 320 kbps, and there's often a deal of dynamic compression just to mislead the ear further. It's no accident that Qobuz and eclassical excerpts sound better, as they are both sound-quality obsessives themselves.

Streaming services are ubiquitous now, but I dislike the business model, so often unfair to composers and performers. But my main point has always been that lossy codecs, whilst fine for musical enjoyment, "getting some idea" about a recording, or trying out unknown repertoire, shouldn't be relied upon for an accurate critical assessment - especially in easily-lost-or-distorted details such as acoustic qualities or tonal balance. I'm afraid the above comments on this JEG B minor, based on Record Review excerpts, have only confirmed my view, as it sounded pleasant, warm and refined on either Qobuz or eclassical. Again, thread comments based on say, 256 kbps streaming often bear little relation to the CDs or hi-res files I own & know well... the point should also be made that the ear needs time to adjust to various balances, so eclassical's system does give you a better chance...

It was a lot easier when FM was often pretty close to the LP you might rush out to buy!

But I'll just have to buy this Bach in 24/96 now, to hear it as truthfully as possible.... shame it's not on offer at Qobuz anymore.....

(It'll be intriguing to see if JEG comes back at Parrott in NEXT month's Gramophone...!)

[vinteuil]

(It'll be intriguing to see if JEG comes back at Parrott in NEXT month's Gramophone...!)

... I seem to remember that the Rifkin v Koopman debate on OVPP in the journal 'Early Music' went on for what seemed years and years and years

I wonder if J-E G has even read the Parrott book - his statement that 'there is no evidence' is so crass....



.

[ardcarp]

Not at all convinced by the JEG Bach extract played - it actually had the sort of desiccated, driven, chugging quality

My thoughts exactly, calibs

(apart from 'dessicated', that is! My old Latin teacher would have thrown a fit...not to mention a board-rubber or two. Those were the days........)

[ardcarp]

Shame so few people read Gramophone anymore!

It needs to move with the times and re-name itself Phonograph.

[Nick Armstrong]

My thoughts exactly, calibs

(apart from 'dessicated', that is! My old Latin teacher would have thrown a fit...not to mention a board-rubber or two. Those were the days........)

I'm in your debt

Time to get the orthotic insoles out again...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It needs to move with the times and re-name itself Phonograph.

[jayne lee wilson]

There was once a feature called "Sounds in Retrospect" in a magazine called "Gramophone". A few experienced reviewers would select recent recommendations for sonic scrutiny on a high-end high-resolution system. My own system was modest then, but I learned a lot from listening to those recordings on it and comparing notes with Ivor Humphreys, John Borwick et al... (not least - how easily you can misjudge them...)

I wonder what they'd think of the critical judgements thrown about these days, based on listening to excerpts at less than a quarter the resolution of a CD?

Those days are gone for good, yes, but I feel saddened by some aspects of what took their place... I think when you had to consider a review carefully, and commit to a new release by buying it, you might just have made more of an effort to appreciate - precisely - interpretative approaches that may have seemed less sympathetic to your tastes....

Quality-reduced music is too available, too easily, now - and snap judgements abound...

[Nevilevelis]

Not at all convinced by the JEG Bach extract played - it actually had the sort of desiccated, driven, chugging quality that made it sound as if it had been rearranged by Martland or Nyman....

Absolutely!

[Daniel]

Having now listened to the rest of the JEG Bach Mass, it seems rather, you know, good. Certainly lean and driven at times, but my brain receptors seem to enjoy it. I find the Credo somewhat kick ass, if I may be so bold. Which also goes for a large part of the rest of the recording.

I'm a tiny bit mystified at all the naysaying ... hope I'm listening to the same recording as everyone else* .. but vive la difference etc. There are quite a few JEG recordings I don't like, but this certainly isn't one of them. (Also I'm not even listening at a particularly impressive bitrate, but as the cd is on its way, that won't matter for much longer. )

*the one on the cover of which, he seems to have taken to conducting from inside a giant grey parachute.

[jayne lee wilson]

You mean this one....



Yes, striking image.... so much material for an artist to shape and shade....

Did I say "no real problems" with the sound of this new JEG Bach B Minor Mass? Oh, my word....

Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty...

4608 kbps gets you a bit more of the truth...

In its 24/96 WAV guise (played in Audirvana+ 2.3.2 via well-optimised USB) it's simply stunning...glorious... the most striking qualities are - warmth and intimacy, set fairly close in a transparent, precisely 3-D soundstage, placing each choral section very clearly as they enter. The orchestra blends in supportively - distinct but not too separate. With this intimacy, the warmth and smoothness of the balance, the music seems to speak to you directly from very present performers and you quickly become absorbed in the performance - you can "watch" it unfold, tangibly, before you. Soloists a little forward of the ensemble, smoothly balanced with no trace of harshness or overemphasis. (JEG lends a lovely buoyancy and lightness to the textures & rhythms in the Kyrie sequence, a relaxed spring-in-the-step to his directing...)
This is one of the most beautiful recordings of a classical choral masterpiece I've heard - smooth, detailed, precise and above all effortlessly natural. Finely engineered by Mike Hatch & Chris Kalcov in LSO St. Luke's.

If you have the later, SDG readings of the Brahms and Beethoven, the balance here is closer to the gorgeous Usher Hall German Requiem than to the leaner, more distanced but still compelling dramas of the Barbican Miss Solemnis. I haven't heard the earlier JEG B Minor for some time now, but I'm sure it wasn't as seductively lovely as this!

(This recording should play well on most systems - it certainly gets very lively through the resurrexit or the osanna, but we're not talking vanishing-point ppps or hide-behind-the-sofa fffs here. I always find the CD to be pretty close to the download, so that should sound good too).

If you are at all sympathetic to JEG's sonic and interpretational approach - don't miss this one!

[ardcarp]

I bow as ever to your expertise in matters recording, jlw, however.....

we're not talking vanishing-point ppps or hide-behind-the-sofa fffs here.

I rather felt we were. And I am agnostic about....

JEG's sonic and interpretational approach

For instance some parts of his Christmas Oratorio on Archiv (which we gave a spin over the past couple of weeks) are ravishingly beautiful while others seem driven and relentless. My first impression of the Credo on Record Review was not great; and I also found the 'choir' less consistently balanced tonally than it has been in the past. As I mentioned earlier, I also found the (extremely virtuosic) players driven to adopt exaggerated articulation. As someone upthread mentioned, it seemed more about JEG than about Bach.

But I must (short of buying it!) give it another chance.

[teamsaint]

Caught up this morning and enjoyed it although I remain sadly impervious to much of the selected music.

Fun to hear DON; and indeed SMP impressed as being worth far more than some of the rôles forced on her by the R3 régime e.g. serving Breakfast. However, she does still seem to have a tendency to say everything's 'wonderful wonderful brilliant stunning' - I'd be reassured if one ever heard her be anything less than 'blown away' by everything.

Not at all convinced by the JEG Bach extract played - it actually had the sort of desiccated, driven, chugging quality that made it sound as if it had been rearranged by Martland or Nyman....

I almost always enjoy DON's contributions, principally because he seems to have an actual point of view, based in some sort of ( almost!)tangible thought process connected to the actual music.

He explains his thoughts and opinions in a straightforward and understandable way, and in a way that illuminates the music and doesn't just sound impressive.
and he's like one of us. Has to listen in the car,( time pressure) even though he knows this is usually unsatisfactory, but, as he pointed out on Saturday, occasionally illuminating.

He presumably has a preference for being referred to as " Norris".

and good to hear lads from the provinces getting their chance !!