Ravel Monteux

[Ferretfancy]

Apart from having seen him conduct Daphnis, I have a vivid memory of a Monteux performance at the Festival Hall of Ravel's Sheherezade with Victoria de los Angeles as the soioist.

If only a recording of it existed !

Another great Daphnis recording is of course the Charles Munch, I enjoy Paray's Ravel as well, but he always favoured fast speeds, which doesn't always work in this composer.

[Gordon]

Thanks Gordon, I'd always wondered what those engravings meant!

Good, but it gets more complicated still!!

EMI had a very similar system but left out the engineer's reference letter ie they didn't use it. A Columbia top price [ie classical, but also some pop LPs too] discs had matrix formats like: YAX xxxx.L. YAX is stereo 12" LP, xxxx the tape for one side and xxxx+1 for the other. L is the Lacquer number. HMV discs had a format 2YEA xxxx.L for a 12" stereo LP.

The system is: Tape - Lacquer - Mother - Stamper. The first two are combined and the latter 2 engraved separately so both companies had additional engravings to denote the Mother and Stamper. A Mother is a metal positive [ie a playable version of the disc with grooves in it] made from a unique metal negative itself made from a cut lacquer. Mother 1 is the first made from a given Lacquer and its metal negative. Each metal Mother is used to make more negative metals - these are Stampers - that are the pieces put in the presses. These wear and are replaced after a certain number of pressed discs. Eventually the Mothers are also redone leading to a numbered sequence.

A popular disc can go into quite a few Lacquers and Mothers each of which generating many Stampers each of which in turn producing as many as 1000 or more vinyl discs. The system must be flexible to cope with short and long pressing runs. To avoid confusion a ten letter word - it obviously must not have repeated letters - was used to denote the Stamper sequence so a letter codes that sequence. Ten is maximum to avoid repeating and thus confusing the production runs and so each Mother could have 10,000 or more offspring in the form of vinyl discs. Budget labels might have more.

Decca used the word BUCKINGHAM and EMI used GRAMOPHLTD and so a letter from these words would also be engraved in a different place in the run out area from the main Tape+Lacquer reference. So for example a Decca disc made from Stamper K would be the 4th in the set of Stampers made from a particular Mother which would be one in a sequence from a Lacquer. Similarly for EMI with Stamper M. For a given vinyl disc there is no way of knowing from the engraved data how many discs a Stamper had already pressed by the time it pressed yours!

So a complete example from Decca is: catalogue number SXL 2188/SDD136 is an Ansermet LP of Stravinsky Pulcinella etc recorded in Geneva in 1956. It's engraved Tape+Lacquer data is: ZAL 3128/9.LE the L being a Lacquer number, let's say the first so L=1. E is for Stan Goodall the engineer who cut the lacquer. Had Jack Law the ace tape editor done it the letter would be D. Let's say your particular disc has the BUCKINGHAM Code letter N then it would have come from the 6th in the set of 10 Stampers made from Mother X where X is also engraved elsewhere in the run out area. I have seen popular discs with Lacquer numbers in the high teens. By using a composite Stamper code from a combination of letters the Stamper number can be increased considerably whilst only using 1 Mother eg Stamper code BKH would be Stamper 148.

A very long run of a very popular disc eg Beatles first releases where demand would be huge on day 1 could use more than one Lacquer and Mother and/or multiple BUCKINGHAM/GRAMOPHLTD codes. Many presses would be in use each one using a pair of Stampers and each press using a different code letter or set of letters. More than 10 presses needs a different Mother and/or a multiple letter Stamper code.

Complicated innit! There is ample room for individual discs to vary in pressing quality. Perhaps this needs to move to Pedants Corner.

This and more from these booklets:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hayes-Record.../dp/0952098407 can't find the FFSS booklet on line.

[umslopogaas]

Very complicated! Many thanks, all that will take a bit of digesting. I have collected classical LPs for many years and have been aware that some collectors are obsessive about these codes, wanting the first pressings, but partly because I dont want to appear obsessive (or at least, not very obsessive) and partly because collectible LPs in good condition are very hard to find, I havent paid any attention to them.

[Gordon]

Very complicated! Many thanks, all that will take a bit of digesting. I have collected classical LPs for many years and have been aware that some collectors are obsessive about these codes, wanting the first pressings, but partly because I dont want to appear obsessive (or at least, not very obsessive) and partly because collectible LPs in good condition are very hard to find, I haven't paid any attention to them.

Agreed, very much a pursuit for the anoraks. Speaking of which Monteux was an avid fan of Fire Engines!! Extract from his obit in the NYT:

Mr. Monteux was also a great fire buff. Only last year the London Fire Brigade gave him a helmet and enrolled him as an honorary member. Earlier, this interest helped endear him to his fellow citizens of Hancock [the town in Maine where PM lived]. Not only did he buy the town its fire engine but he also donated a station to house it.

Going back to the OT Monteux's Enigma variations with the LSO from the same era as the Daphnis is worth a listen. I quite like his Beethoven 4th symphony too but not PC enough these days to get a mention.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I quite like his Beethoven 4th symphony too but not PC enough these days to get a mention.

But "RC enough" to "get a mention" last Saturday.

[Exonian]

I am a big fan of Monteux's Ravel and Debussy recordings of the late 50s and early to mid-60s. His Daphnis et Chloe is one of those rare recordings which fully deserves its long-held reputation. His other Ravel and Debussy recordings with the LSO on Decca and Philips were also, I think, tremendous.

His repertoire was much broader than we give him credit for - one of the greatest of conductors.

[Gordon]

But "RC enough" to "get a mention" last Saturday.

Only just and at the end in passing stimulated by the fact that Zinman was a pupil.!

[Gordon]

I am a big fan of Monteux's Ravel and Debussy recordings of the late 50s and early to mid-60s. His Daphnis et Chloe is one of those rare recordings which fully deserves its long-held reputation. His other Ravel and Debussy recordings with the LSO on Decca and Philips were also, I think, tremendous.

His repertoire was much broader than we give him credit for - one of the greatest of conductors.

Sure enough, but the reason Monteux spent a fair amount of time in London [and elsewhere] with the LSO in the late 50s was that his recording company, RCA Victor, considered him to be a poor seller compared to others, perhaps more glamorous, on their rosters [Stoky, Toscanini, Ormandy] so they farmed him out!! Another company might have made more of him.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Only just and at the end in passing

Indeed - and had you said "hardly ever gets a passing mention", nobody would have been able to point out the inaccuracy of what you were saying.

stimulated by the fact that Zinman was a pupil.!

Well - again, this isn't entirely the case: RC (who, as far as I know, has never been "accused" of being "PC" before) also mentioned the forthcoming release of Monteux' Beethoven Symphony cycle with some approval. Quite rightly - Monteux was a fine Beethoven conductor (Previn, another Monteux pupil, has told of the time he first went to a Bernstein concert - the next day he had a lesson with Monteux on the Eroica; Previn conducted an excerpt, and stopped when something went wrong. "I see you've been watching Mr Bernstein," said Monteux, "If you watch him a little more closely, you'll notice that he always makes sure he brings the horns in before he does his jump!"). But is anyone seriously suggesting that his Beethoven recordings don't feature as "the best" because of "PC"-ness?!

[Exonian]

Sure enough, but the reason Monteux spent a fair amount of time in London [and elsewhere] with the LSO in the late 50s was that his recording company, RCA Victor, considered him to be a poor seller compared to others, perhaps more glamorous, on their rosters [Stoky, Toscanini, Ormandy] so they farmed him out!! Another company might have made more of him.

I like a lot of the SFSO recordings he did in the 1940s as well. A fascinating box set if you can get it. He did seem to encourage great music and music makers.

[vibratoforever]

I bought many Monteux recordings in the sixties, including his Debussy and Ravel, and I think they are over-rated, he's a bit of a cold fish. Contemporaneously, Ansermet and Munch had equally interesting things to say.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I bought many Monteux recordings in the sixties, including his Debussy and Ravel, and I think they are over-rated, he's a bit of a cold fish. Contemporaneously, Ansermet and Munch had equally interesting things to say.

So ... you believe that Ansermet and Munch are also "overrated cold fish", too?

[cloughie]

I bought many Monteux recordings in the sixties, including his Debussy and Ravel, and I think they are over-rated, he's a bit of a cold fish.

Johnny Mac! - use your listen again facilities - ears will do - how can anyone brand Monteux overrated?

[HighlandDougie]

Part of the CD haul from my trip to Japan is the Tower Records Vintage Collection "The Art of Pierre Monteux Vol. 2", which contains the recordings he made for Philips with the Concertgebouw (Beethoven/Schubert/Tchaikovsky) and the LSO (Brahms/Ravel/Debussy). The re-mastered recordings have come up really well so I'm also a bit taken aback by the description of him as, "a bit of a cold fish". I think that his Ravel (Mother Goose, for instance) is anything but cold.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

His Daphnis et Chloe is one of those rare recordings which fully deserves its long-held reputation.

I have it on LP. I only bought it because PM conducted the premiere. As a performance I find it bit bit rushed and prefer Dutoit.