Indispensable recordings 10.08.2024. Proms Composer 4: Beethoven

[akiralx]

Piano Concerto 3 - Uchida/Sanderling

Piano Concerto 4 - Fleisher/Szell

Piano concerto 5 - Perahia/Haitink

Sonata op.110 - Kovacevich (though his favourite is op.109 - he has said he would forfeit all the sonatas except that one, if he could play the Sibelius Violin Concerto or win the Wimbledon Men's Singles)

[makropulos]

A lot of No. 3s here, makropulos! And the only one that isn’t is Sonata No. 30…

You're right - too many 3s, even without the String Trio or the Pathétique sonata, or some bagatelles, or the Grosse Fuge...
More seriously, I have just listened to that Zehetmair/Bour Violin Concerto. It's genuinely thrilling – thanks so much for mentioning it.

[Barbirollians]

PC 3 - Annie Fischer/Fricsay
PC5 Barenboim/Klemperer
VC- Perlman/Giulini
Eroica - VPO/Erich Kleiber
opus 109-111 Brendel

[Mandryka]

This really is the dead poets society

E Kleiber, Giulini, Klamperer, Fricsay Szell, Haitink, Sanderling, Busch Q, Schnabel, Jochum, Leitner, Gulda, Solomon, Walter, Levy, Zhukov, E and A Fischer, Cortot. Thibaud, Casals, Furtwangler, Italiano Q.

[Ein Heldenleben]

This really is the dead poets society

E Kleiber, Giulini, Klamperer, Fricsay Szell, Haitink, Sanderling, Busch Q, Schnabel, Jochum, Leitner, Gulda, Solomon, Walter, Levy, Zhukov, E and A Fischer, Cortot. Thibaud, Casals, Furtwangler, Italiano Q.

I’m disappointed because I thought you were working backwards in 20 opus no. Steps from Op131 to Op 111 so I was expecting Wellingtons Victory next …

[smittims]

Hermann Scherchen's 'stereo spectacular' Westminster recording of Wellington's Victory is indispensible, surely! What fun...

Well, Mandryka, maybe there's something to be said for dead poets. Juts why is it that so many people are returning to these perfromances,the older they get? Could it be that that generatioin had some key to the essence of Beethoven? I remember whan Rob Cowan played Furtwangler's 1943 Coriolan and several people phoned in and messaged on the Radio 3 site to say how impressed they were. No-one would,I think, perform it like that today. I wonder if it would even be possible.

[Mandryka]

Could it be that that generatioin had some key to the essence of Beethoven? .

No

[Ein Heldenleben]

Hermann Scherchen's 'stereo spectacular' Westminster recording of Wellington's Victory is indispensible, surely! What fun...

Well, Mandryka, maybe there's something to be said for dead poets. Juts why is it that so many people are returning to these perfromances,the older they get? Could it be that that generatioin had some key to the essence of Beethoven? I remember whan Rob Cowan played Furtwangler's 1943 Coriolan and several people phoned in and messaged on the Radio 3 site to say how impressed they were. No-one would,I think, perform it like that today. I wonder if it would even be possible.

I think its to do with the recording industry and the culture of perfection that’s grown up around it. Schnabel and Furtwangler performances took big risks that people just won’t do now - and if it goes wrong is they must retake and edit, The lack of really outstanding conductors has been linked to many things chiefly the replacement of old style opera House repetiteur / asst conductor apprenticeships with the dead hand of the conservatoire ; and with the piano it’s the whole system of academic teaching and over hyped competition. Quite a few of the most Famous names in piano world these days retired early or give so few live performances they could barely be called concert pianists - they are CD pianists : something else entirely. The great names of the past often keeled over at the keyboard.

[Mandryka]

Dead Poets list

Eroica - Pfitzner
Egmont (complete stage music) - Scherchen
Pastoral - Mengleberg (live, on VAI unissued live recordings)
Missa Solemnis - Harnoncourt 2
Symphony 4 - Furtwangler (1943)

[Mandryka]

Schnabel and Furtwangler performances took big risks

What big risks did Furtwangler take in Beethoven? I thought it was all meticulously planned and micromanaged with an iron hand in performance. And Schnabel - apart from the (foolhardy) first movement of op 106? I don't know if there were any Schnabel retakes, unpublished versions. I suppose the second recording of op 109 and op 111 are retakes stemming from dissatisfaction with the first published performances.

I'm pretty sure I could think of some modern real risk takers if I put my mind to it - have you heard Pletnev's op 110 for example - on youtube? And HJ Lim's complete sonatas? And Aimard's concertos with Harnoncourt?

[Ein Heldenleben]

What big risks did Furtwangler take in Beethoven? I thought it was all meticulously planned and micromanaged with an iron hand in performance. And Schnabel - apart from the (foolhardy) first movement of op 106? I don't know if there were any Schnabel retakes, unpublished versions. I suppose the second recording of op 109 and op 111 are retakes stemming from dissatisfaction with the first published performances.

I'm pretty sure I could think of some modern real risk takers if I put my mind to it - have you heard Pletnev's op 110 for example - on youtube? And HJ Lim's complete sonatas? And Aimard's concertos with Harnoncourt?

The risks they took were working in the early days of a recording medium where editing and retakes were well nigh impossible.

[Sir Velo]

Sorry I can't see anything safe about Francois Xavier Roth/Les Siecles recent Beethoven series or Savall or Bezuidenhout/Freiburg/Heras-Casado's set of the PCs. To me these are as exciting performances as have ever been laid down. As for the older generation of artists taking risks in a medium where retakes weren't possible, that's surely more a case of the circumstances of the recording process determining the approach rather than actual risk taking per se.

[richardfinegold]

What big risks did Furtwangler take in Beethoven? I thought it was all meticulously planned and micromanaged with an iron hand in performance. And Schnabel - apart from the (foolhardy) first movement of op 106? I don't know if there were any Schnabel retakes, unpublished versions. I suppose the second recording of op 109 and op 111 are retakes stemming from dissatisfaction with the first published performances.

I'm pretty sure I could think of some modern real risk takers if I put my mind to it - have you heard Pletnev's op 110 for example - on youtube? And HJ Lim's complete sonatas? And Aimard's concertos with Harnoncourt?

I think Mandyryka has a fundamental misunderstanding of Furtwangler's Art. He was known for his flights of fancy in concert, for his variances from what happened in the rehearsal room. These risks were augmented by his less than pristine conducting skills (beat that ward to follow, etc. He probably would not have graded well in a conducting class). At his best he was somehow able to
form a bond with the orchestra and they could follow him despite these issues. His reharsals (at least transcripts of the ones that I have seen) were dedicated more to getting the basic sound; he prefered a deeply grounded string sound, for example, with significance prominence given to the double basses, cellos,and low brass

[Mandryka]

I think Mandyryka has a fundamental misunderstanding of Furtwangler's Art. He was known for his flights of fancy in concert, for his variances from what happened in the rehearsal room. These risks were augmented by his less than pristine conducting skills (beat that ward to follow, etc. He probably would not have graded well in a conducting class). At his best he was somehow able to
form a bond with the orchestra and they could follow him despite these issues. His reharsals (at least transcripts of the ones that I have seen) were dedicated more to getting the basic sound; he prefered a deeply grounded string sound, for example, with significance prominence given to the double basses, cellos,and low brass

I thought he planned out everything using some sort of analysis loosely based on Schenker's ideas. In the Brahms 4 Passacaglia rehearsal in London in 1948 he does seem to use his eyes to exert control, his hands seem to be independent and giving clear signals -- but in truth I know nothing about conducting or Schenker!

Unfeasibly long arms and very scary eyes. Tremendous the way he stands to attention at the end. It's not so much that they don't play like this any more, smittims . It's more that they've never played like this before or since!

[richardfinegold]

I thought he planned out everything using some sort of analysis loosely based on Schenker's ideas. In the Brahms 4 Passacaglia rehearsal in London in 1948 he does seem to use his eyes to exert control, his hands seem to be independent and giving clear signals -- but in truth I know nothing about conducting or Schenker!

Unfeasibly long arms and very scary eyes. Tremendous the way he stands to attention at the end. It's not so much that they don't play like this any more, smittims . It's more that they've never played like this before or since!

Conducting is a Dark Art and no one is exactly sure how results are obtained.