Vaughan Williams Symphonies 4 and 5

[Barbirollians]

The live Barbirolli is terrific unlike sadly the sound .

[richardfinegold]

I discovered RVW in my forties, initially via Haitink and the Antarctica, then subsequently the rest via the Bryden Thomson cycle on Chandos. Chances of encountering RVW in concert on this side of the pond were remote then, and I was probably unduly influenced when I was younger and would listen to a few U.S. based record review type programs. I remember some of the commentators sneeringly dismissing Previn recordings as being less worthy than his recordings of film composers.
Anyway when I finally investigated for myself I was delighted to discover a major composer that completely resonated with me. I also was imprinted by the wide open spacious Chandos sonics, starting with a pairing of #5 and Lark. The Sonics, music , and performances seemed to encapsulate the feeling of standing in Salisbury Plain on a windy early spring day.
Anyway, I rarely see the Thomson cycle mentioned here. I have since listened to many alternative recordings, most recently a Boult cycle on Pristine Audio. I’ve never encountered a RVW symphony recording that didn’t engage me on some level. So I am just wondering where the Thomson ranks with others

[Master Jacques]

Anyway, I rarely see the Thomson cycle mentioned here. I have since listened to many alternative recordings, most recently a Boult cycle on Pristine Audio. I’ve never encountered a RVW symphony recording that didn’t engage me on some level. So I am just wondering where the Thomson ranks with others

The difficulty I have, is with this idea of "ranking". Truthfully, if the Thomson cycle means a great deal to us, then that's glorious - more critical rankings of its merits and demerits simply shouldn't matter. There is no "best" in this field, only "different"; and BT's gift for colour, balance and drama brings great riches in his Chandos RVW cycle. You wouldn't be alone in making it your favourite.

I vividly remember a performance of the 5th Symphony which BT gave at the Brighton Festival many years ago with the LPO (I think) which moved me move than any live RVW symphonic performance I've heard, before or since. He entered into its spiritual lightness and depths without any straining for effect, and it was one of those rare occasions where the whole audience sat quiet for a second or two after the music faded, before bursting into tumultuous applause.

if you are looking for a very different approach, the relative objectivity of Handley's cycle with the RLPO might prove interesting.

[cloughie]

The difficulty I have, is with this idea of "ranking". Truthfully, if the Thomson cycle means a great deal to us, then that's glorious - more critical rankings of its merits and demerits simply shouldn't matter. There is no "best" in this field, only "different"; and BT's gift for colour, balance and drama brings great riches in his Chandos RVW cycle. You wouldn't be alone in making it your favourite.

I vividly remember a performance of the 5th Symphony which BT gave at the Brighton Festival many years ago with the LPO (I think) which moved me move than any live RVW symphonic performance I've heard, before or since. He entered into its spiritual lightness and depths without any straining for effect, and it was one of those rare occasions where the whole audience sat quiet for a second or two after the music faded, before bursting into tumultuous applause.

if you are looking for a very different approach, the relative objectivity of Handley’s cycle with the RLPO might prove interesting.

I think that maybe if you liked Boult’s RVW then you’ll like Handley’s. If you like Barbirolli’s you’d like Thomson’s. RVW has fared well on record over the years - I think maybe the earlier Andrew Davis cycle on Warner has disappointed me most of all, and his recording of Job but his Chandos set seem much better!
The Boult 50s recordings on Decca were for me a great introduction to RVW as a teenager in particular 2,3,5, Job and Wasps adding in Collins on Tallis and Greensleeves.

[smittims]

I think Bryden Thomson has been underrated, and this has hindered reissues. His Bax series also suffered in this way.

[cloughie]

I think Bryden Thomson has been underrated, and this has hindered reissues. His Bax series also suffered in this way.

I agree smittims…and Chandos pushing the Hickox/A Davis will have maybe deterred them.

[oliver sudden]

My way into Vaughan Williams in the first place was the Thomson 4 and 6, along with him coming to Melbourne to conduct the 4th. So I have a definite soft spot there.

Of course that did give me a slightly unrealistic expectation of what the rest of Vaughan Williams would entail, but that’s all part of the fun.

[Master Jacques]

I think Bryden Thomson has been underrated, and this has hindered reissues. His Bax series also suffered in this way.

His Bax cycle is badly in need of a remastering: Chandos did this for many of his tone poem recordings, to good effect, but the (very early) CD issues of the symphonies were not a patch on the wonderful demonstration sound of Thomson's LP set - the CDs most disappointing, as to dynamic range and instrumental clarity - and it would be only fair to BT's legacy to remaster them now. Please, Chandos!

[richardfinegold]

The difficulty I have, is with this idea of "ranking". Truthfully, if the Thomson cycle means a great deal to us, then that's glorious - more critical rankings of its merits and demerits simply shouldn't matter. There is no "best" in this field, only "different"; and BT's gift for colour, balance and drama brings great riches in his Chandos RVW cycle. You wouldn't be alone in making it your favourite.

I vividly remember a performance of the 5th Symphony which BT gave at the Brighton Festival many years ago with the LPO (I think) which moved me move than any live RVW symphonic performance I've heard, before or since. He entered into its spiritual lightness and depths without any straining for effect, and it was one of those rare occasions where the whole audience sat quiet for a second or two after the music faded, before bursting into tumultuous applause.

if you are looking for a very different approach, the relative objectivity of Handley's cycle with the RLPO might prove interesting.

The description of the concert is precisely the effect that the Thomson CD of the 5th has upon me. One almost doesn’t want to breathe after the last quiet note. On the CD The Lark follows, a perfect discmate. No other recording of the Fifth moves me to this extent

btw, MJ, I’m not requesting that a ‘ranking’ be issued, but I never see the Thomson cycle mentioned here when RVW recordings are discussed, and that just seems to be a shame

[smittims]

Good point, Master Jaques. I still treasure my LP of Thomson's Bax 4, the first of his series of the symphonies, and it sounds excellent.

[Barbirollians]

I wasn’t very struck by Bryden Thomson’s recording of Bax 4 and Tintagel . Got a great deal more from Handley and Lloyd-Jones on Naxos but the recording that opened my ears to Bax was the historic Dutton coupling of the Third with Barbirolli and Eda Kersey and Boult in his violin concerto.

[smittims]

Yes, that Barbirolli Third, the first amd for many years the only available recording of any Bax symphony, is a true classic. It was the first recording made by the 'new' Halle (largely Barbirolli's creation) on 31 December 1943. Many years later I heard the symphony for the first time at a a Halle concert conducted by Maurice Handford: a memorable evening. .

[Master Jacques]

Yes, that Barbirolli Third, the first amd for many years the only available recording of any Bax symphony, is a true classic. It was the first recording made by the 'new' Halle (largely Barbirolli's creation) on 31 December 1943. Many years later I heard the symphony for the first time at a a Halle concert conducted by Maurice Handford: a memorable evening. .

I've heard some live, off-air Maurice Handford / Hallé Bax symphony recordings which are splendid. It's a pity he didn't record some of them in the studio, as he had a great feeling for these marvellous works.

[Master Jacques]

I wasn’t very struck by Bryden Thomson’s recording of Bax 4 and Tintagel . Got a great deal more from Handley and Lloyd-Jones on Naxos but the recording that opened my ears to Bax was the historic Dutton coupling of the Third with Barbirolli and Eda Kersey and Boult in his violin concerto.

When it comes to Bax's 4th, I "imprinted" on the old Handley/Guildford Philharmonic LP, which did get well transferred to CD by Concert Artist (William Barrington Coupe's label). Handley finds a swagger and humour in the 'celtic march' of the last movement which interested him less in his swifter, leaner Chandos reading; and the "rock pool" explorations of the first movement are more poetic - if not quite so well played - in that Guildford version.

https://www.arnoldbax.com/handleys-first-bax-4th-concert-artist-reviewed-by-christopher-webber/

[seabright]

It sometimes happens that a "live" performance of a work is superior to a "studio" recording under the same conductor. Here are a couple of examples, in which each work is played by an American orchestra under an.American conductor. Here first is Andre Previn and the Houston Symphony on a visit to Carnegie Hall, New York, on 30 April 1969. To some ears I fancy this will be considered vastly superior to his Kingsway Hall recording with the LSO of a few weeks earlier ...

And here is RVW5 from Leonard Slatkin in a 1988 broadcast with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, two years before he recorded it with the Philharmonia. There are over 70 "comments" under this video, including such praise as "glorious" and "fabulous" with the Chicago strings particularly being singled out for their "wonderful playing" ...