Silvestri

[Barbirollians]

My great uncle was a bit of a Bournemouth bigwig and had something to do with the BSO but as he died when I was quite young I never got to know what - he sang Silvestri's praises to the highest though .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Is the way the opening of Tchaik 4 simply an unjustified quirk, which we might (or not) have to forgive Silvestri for, or is/was there any sensible basis for performing it that way?

Unjustified quirk.

[gradus]

Maybe not so unjustified, Silvestri was reported (in a review of the recording) to have said that the fanfares were performed that way originally and in eastern europe. Unfortunately I no longer have the magazine which contained the review. Perhaps HS may recall something being said about it - it certainly sounds odd when first heard.

[Dave2002]

Unjustified quirk.

Does seem so - after looking at the score - http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.4,...vsky,_Pyotr%29

I note the comments from gradus, but without more substantiation and justification this does seem to be unlikely to be what Tchaikovsky intended. Also, just because (allegedly) some conductors/orchestras in Eastern Europe played it that way, that surely doesn't justify such an odd way of playing - unless there really was a history of such playing which was authenticated back to the composer. Perhaps someone had an odd sense of humour - do they have April Fools in Russia?

[secondfiddle]

Those Tchaik 4 opening fanfares do indeed sound weird ... Has anyone else ever played them that way? ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WTJFxGywKg

Ray Carpenter, in his fascinating book on Silvestri, discusses Silvestri's approach to Tchaikovsky 4:

'My first memory of Silvestri is with Tchaikovsky 4, a work I thought I knew because I had played it many times with other conductors and heard it many times. It was not until he had already done a week of this work as a guest conductor that we found out that his interpretation was notorious. I believe he had much trouble with other orchestras resisting the phrasing (mostly) and tempi. . . Mostly we could not understand his English or his message. To make us understand he would sing, shout, mimic, stamp, try to describe in broken English and once he had found someone who could play a phrase the way he wanted, he would use that person to play to the rest of us, in sections or soloists. . . The trumpet fanfare at the beginning was typical of his ways; making the brass exaggerate the rhythms so that it would be heard in a more distinct and special way. Silvestri is supposed to have found an old trumpet player in Moscow who played this phrasing to him in the traditional Russian way. . .'

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Silvestri is supposed to have found an old trumpet player in Moscow who played this phrasing to him in the traditional Russian way. . .'

Hmmm. Even allowing the existence of this "old trumpet player", it's odd that no recordings from Russian orchestras testify to this "traditional Russian way". And is it confined just to the opening of the Tchaik #4, or to all examples oif this sort of rhythm? (Does Silvestri demand it of the trumpet player in the accompaniment to the "middle" (pocissimo piu mosso) section of The Young Prince and the Young Princess from Scheherazade, for example? (Not to mention the violin solo at the start of the work!)

[Dave2002]

Silvestri is supposed to have found an old trumpet player in Moscow who played this phrasing to him in the traditional Russian way. . .'

Although I don't particularly like stereotypes, and there are many Russians who don't fit into one standard, there are still many who like - and I write from some personal experience - and other well known musicians and composers, such as Glazunov did too -


Perhaps the Russian trumpeter was "traditional" in other ways too.

[Hornspieler]

Silvestri was an eccentric. Nobody can deny that. But he turned a Provincial symphony orchestra into one which received worldwide acclaim.

After his untimely death, George Hurst preserved the "Silvestri Sound", with particularly the quality and confidence of the string playing and Paavo Berglund introduced some exciting performances particularly of Scandinavian and Eastern European music.

But orchestras are constantly changing their personnel. Players retire and are gradually replace by youngsters to whom Silvestri is just a name from the past. That quality of sound and interpretation is no longer apparent, as a result of a subsequent procession of conductors who had their own ideas on interpretation*.

I was not impressed by Karabits at first, but his work has matured and the Bournemouth orchestra is now sounding more mature and playing with more confidence with every performance.


Let's not be too critcal of Silvestri over one little quirk. For many, his interpretations of British composers has opened the eyes (and ears) of many, and his recording of Elgar's "Alassio" and 1st symphony are world beaters; as is his understanding and interpretations of Ralph Vaughan Williams and William Walton.

HS

* Rudolf Barshai was universally disliked by the members of the orchestra at that time and dragged the orchestra down to its lowest ebb. It was Ms Alsopp who started the BSO back up on the road to recovery.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Silvestri was an eccentric. Nobody can deny that. But he turned a Provincial symphony orchestra into one which received worldwide acclaim.

Let's not be too critcal of Silvestri over one little quirk.

[Dave2002]

Let's not be too critcal of Silvestri over one little quirk.

I agree, though it does rather spoil that particular Tchaikovsky symphony. I think the other Tchaikovsky symphonies are not so quirky IIRC.

For many, his interpretations of British composers has opened the eyes (and ears) of many, and his recording of Elgar's "Alassio" and 1st symphony are world beaters; as is his understanding and interpretations of Ralph Vaughan Williams and William Walton.

Indeed - Alassio is splendid.

* Rudolf Barshai was universally disliked by the members of the orchestra at that time and dragged the orchestra down to its lowest ebb. It was Ms Alsop who started the BSO back up on the road to recovery.

I didn't realise that Barshai presented problems. Maybe these things are particular to the person and the orchestra. I liked some of Barshai's Shostakovich recordings, and also his rearrangements of some of Shostakovich's other works. I agree that Marin Alsop is good.

Another problematic conductor/orchestra relationship seems to have been that between Leonard Slatkin and the BBCSO, yet some of Slatkin's work is I believe very good. Additionally, of course, like/dislike does not necessarily correlated with good/poor outcomes. It is perfectly possible for there to be mutual dislike, yet the results could be very good - though that's not a particularly pleasant situation to arise. On whole it is probably better for most of the participants in a project to like each other, or at least get on OK, though I have seen teams fail where there were no internal conflicts and distlikes, and conversely.

It is also possible, I believe, that a conductor may spoil an orchestra by not allowing enough time for development, even though the conductor him/herself may build up a good reputation, and some conductors manage to wreck the good work done by their predecessors.

That's where conductors such as Simon Rattle do very well - he built up the CBSO to a very high standard, and will hopefully keep or improve the standard of the LSO in due course.

[Barbirollians]

The ICON box set is a must .I also strongly recommend a Supraphon disc of Ravel/Lalo and Enescu . The Romanian Rhapsody No 1 on that record is stupendous and he and Navarra turn in a performance of the Lalo Concerto that pins your ears back.

[silvestrione]

The ICON box set is a must .I also strongly recommend a Supraphon disc of Ravel/Lalo and Enescu . The Romanian Rhapsody No 1 on that record is stupendous and he and Navarra turn in a performance of the Lalo Concerto that pins your ears back.

As someone who received his musical education in the Bournemouth Winter Gardens at Silvestri concerts, I would just like to endorse the above comments and add that the above disc is in my view the best of all the available recordings by him, closest to the experience (an extraordinary one) in the concert hall. The Tchaikovsky 5th Sym runs it a close second.

[Conchis]

I don't think Silvestri's 'idiosyncratic' opening spoils the 4th, for me at least.

I'm now on disc 13 of the Icon box, with only two left to go (they seem to have put the most celebrated stuff on the 14th disc). Afaim, they make the case for Silvestri as a major conductor, whose misfortune was to live in a maestro-crowded era. Had he been born twenty years later (and lived longer, of course) he would have been a bigger 'name', I'm sure.

[richardfinegold]

The quirky opening of the Fourth doesn't quite spoil what is otherwise a gripping recording, once you get used to it. And it is kind of refreshing to hear an artist with an individual viewpoint, even if we disagree with it. One does, however, have to be in a receptive mood to spin that particular recording

[Conchis]

The quirky opening of the Fourth doesn't quite spoil what is otherwise a gripping recording, once you get used to it. And it is kind of refreshing to hear an artist with an individual viewpoint, even if we disagree with it. One does, however, have to be in a receptive mood to spin that particular recording

I'd agree with this - the opening catches you 'off balance' but you (or, at least, I) very quickly adjust.