Furtwängler

[mathias broucek]

I like Karajan for the most part but for me Furtwangler is a different category of special. Pretty much any Furtwangler Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Bruckner or Wagner performance will have moments that take the breath away

[Conchis]

Furtwangerl loathed and feared Karajan (referring to him as 'that man K'). I think both only cared about their art and being allowed to practice it; if they had to make compromises with a monstrous regime in order to do that, it was a price they were both prepared to pay. See Istvan Szabo's film 'Mephisto' for a great dramatisation of the 'ethically compromised' artist's mindset.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Pretty much any Furtwangler Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Bruckner or Wagner performance will have moments that take the breath away

I agree totally, but would say the same about Karajan. And if I want to listen to Debussy, Mahler, Strauss, Verdi, Puccini, Debussy, Sibelius, Schönberg, Berg, Webern, Stravinsky, Mendelssohn, Haydn, Tchaikovsky or Dvorak (or, indeed, Schumann) there's more available from Karajan. It's the greater breadth of repertoire (and only that) that would make me give any hypothetical vote (on "which was the greater?") to Karajan.

[silvestrione]

I agree totally, but would say the same about Karajan. And if I want to listen to Debussy, Mahler, Strauss, Verdi, Puccini, Debussy, Sibelius, Schönberg, Berg, Webern, Stravinsky, Mendelssohn, Haydn, Tchaikovsky or Dvorak (or, indeed, Schumann) there's more available from Karajan. It's the greater breadth of repertoire (and only that) that would make me give any hypothetical vote (on "which was the greater?") to Karajan.

Glad to see you say that. There's something unique and special about moments and performances from Furtwangler, but the sheer range of Karajan's achievements is mind-boggling. Every year I discover another great recording from him (the most recent being the Bartok Music for Strings etc so praised and admired by Robert Cowan in BAL, he being very far from a Karajan enthusiast usually).

[Beef Oven!]

I agree totally, but would say the same about Karajan. And if I want to listen to Debussy, Mahler, Strauss, Verdi, Puccini, Debussy, Sibelius, Schönberg, Berg, Webern, Stravinsky, Mendelssohn, Haydn, Tchaikovsky or Dvorak (or, indeed, Schumann) there's more available from Karajan. It's the greater breadth of repertoire (and only that) that would make me give any hypothetical vote (on "which was the greater?") to Karajan.

[Ferretfancy]

Glad to see you say that. There's something unique and special about moments and performances from Furtwangler, but the sheer range of Karajan's achievements is mind-boggling. Every year I discover another great recording from him (the most recent being the Bartok Music for Strings etc so praised and admired by Robert Cowan in BAL, he being very far from a Karajan enthusiast usually).

There was a time when Karajan's earlier performances on disc disappeared for a while. This was unfortunate, as I feel that some of his best work was done late in the mono era and in the first years of the stereo era. Luckily much of his output from that time has now been restored to us on CD. One wonderful example is his EMI performance with the BPO of Hindemith's Mathis der Maler -just amazing, and it has just been re-released. Then there are the first DG stereos, just listen to the last few minutes of Ein Heldenleben, or Shostakovich 10

Once the digital period began and he worked exclusively for DG, I think things began to fall off, partly because the recordings became technically unconvincing. In fact it baffles me why DG's orchestral sound is often so poor today when it was so natural in the past.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Furtwangerl loathed and feared Karajan (referring to him as 'that man K').

That had much to do with Walter Legg's promotion of HvK at the expense of Furtwängler.

[hafod]

I agree totally, but would say the same about Karajan. And if I want to listen to Debussy, Mahler, Strauss, Verdi, Puccini, Debussy, Sibelius, Schönberg, Berg, Webern, Stravinsky, Mendelssohn, Haydn, Tchaikovsky or Dvorak (or, indeed, Schumann) there's more available from Karajan. It's the greater breadth of repertoire (and only that) that would make me give any hypothetical vote (on "which was the greater?") to Karajan.

A further factor in K's favour is of course recording quality. As the quote above implies, 'who was the greater?' is a meaningless question. It merely produces a pointless debate generating more froth than Guinness. I just rejoice in the fact that they both existed and left substantive legacies for posterity.

[Gordon]

gee, Gordon, you take all the fun out of blaming the Nazis for everything

Sorry Richard, there is much else of greater weight to blame them for!! Perhaps my response was a bit OTT! But then I was, I think, stepping in to speak on behalf of my fellow engineers [German that is, plus sucessors in the recording industry generally] who may have just kept their heads down [as we often do] during that odious regime and just did their jobs. Also, as was clear from my pevious posting, a fair amount of technical improvement was made between the RRG period and EMI/Decca.

It is a rather salutary thing to note that war machines are designed by engineers.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

A further factor in K's favour is of course recording quality. As the quote above implies, 'who was the greater?' is a meaningless question. It merely produces a pointless debate generating more froth than Guinness. I just rejoice in the fact that they both existed and left substantive legacies for posterity.

more froth than Guiness - Pure Genius

[Conchis]

That had much to do with Walter Legg's promotion of HvK at the expense of Furtwängler.

You're right. I think Legge's ceding of the EMI Zauberlote (F's favourite opera, apparently) recording to Karajan gave the older man the goat, so when it was suggested that Furtwangler record some Mahler songs with DFD in an unneeded Tristan session, F told Legge to clear off. 'Give me Collingwood!'

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Furtwangler's jealousy (or whatever) of Karajan's rising career dates back to the Das Wunder Karajan article that (IIRC) was a deliberate "plant" initiated by Goebbels in order to "suggest" to Furtwangler that he wasn't indispensible - over a decade before Legge arrived on the scene.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It should also be remembered that Furtwangler and Legge continued to work together until the former's death in November 1954 - not in the recording studio (although there is a letter from WF to Legge about their working together on a recording of Gotterdammerung) but in Legge's capacity as manager of the Philharmonia Orchestra, which Furtwangler greatly admired and enjoyed working with in concerts after his recordings with Legge. There was also the fact that Legge was married to Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, with whom WF also enjoyed working. His final letter to Legge was written just four weeks before his death:

4th November, 1954
Dear Dr Legge

Your programme with the "Eroica" is quite nice, but I am not very happy always to be doing Wagner and Strauss. How would it be if I were to do the "Manfred" Overture and the Schumann Fourth Symphony as well as the "Eroica"? That will certainly be more original and something not everyone can do. The four Brahms Symphonies are fine.

I shall be in Switzerland now until the end of the year. Will you be coming this way some time?

With Best Wishes
Yours sincerely
Wilhelm Furtwangler

PS As a specialist in singers, have you any ideas as to whom I can have as a leading lady in "Magic Flute" in Salzburg?

... Apart from the poignancy of the missed projects suggested here, the tone of this is cordial and respectful of Legge's opinions. An earlier letter (29th Nov 1953) also suggests that they record the Kindertotenlieder with DF-D (although it is ambiguous whether the "we" means "you and I" or "your record company, orchestra, Collingwood and I").

[silvestrione]

. One wonderful example is his EMI performance with the BPO of Hindemith's Mathis der Maler -just amazing.

Oh gosh, there you see, there's another one I don't know and will just have to get hold of! Hope it's not in some 30 CD box though.

I completely agree about his last mono recordings: another breathtaking one is the Philharmonia Don Juan.

[silvestrione]

Do you mean this one, Ferret?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bartok-Strings-Percussion-Celesta-Hindmith/dp/B00000DOIE