SHM-CD reissues from Japan

[johnb]

I remember enjoying the Sanderling Sibelius 7 when I heard it many years ago, probably on the much missed (by me anyway) CD Masters (yes, that long ago).

Anyway, after having my curiosity piqued by Jaynes enthusiasm for the "King" Japanese remasters I have ordered the King Sibelius 2&7 disc from one of Amazon France's Marketplace sellers (musicjapan) for £9.40 inc. delivery.

[HighlandDougie]

Also, are there any recordings of him with the Leningrad PO? A quick and brief search finds some recordings under the title "The Soviet Years" with the Leningrad State PO.

A conductor in the same mould as Rudolf Kempe, Jean Martinon or Eduard van Beinum - profoundly musical and not hugely interested in his image, although I believe that he could be quite a strict task-master. I heard him conduct the Berlin Philharmonic and the Los Angeles Philharmonic, both times - very memorably - with Shostakovich symphonies in the programme. There is a well-known performance of Tchaikovsky's 4th:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Nos-DG-Originals/dp/B000001GQG/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1429440142&sr=1-3&keywords=Tchaikovsky+symphonies+nos+4+-+6+leningrad+philharmonic+orchestra

Don't know off-hand of any other non-Melodiya issues with the Leningrad Phil. As far as I know, the Berlin Symphony recordings were made with Eterna engineers. DG occasionally issued recordings made in East Germany (conducted by the likes of Heinz Rogner and Herbert Kegel) on Heliodor but I'm pretty sure that they were again from Eterna originals.

As to Sanderling's Sibelius, CD Japan (www.cdjapan.co.jp) - very efficient, great packaging, good prices and, so far, problem-free, customs-wise - will sell you the 2nd and 7th:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/KICC-3590

and the 4th:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/AVCL-25295

It's a Hybrid SACD so will play on any CD player - and it sounds very good indeed. Haven't tracked down the 3rd and 5th - yet.

[richardfinegold]

I guess your original CDs are the Eurodisc ones, Richard? They might be better than the Navigators...

I think most of us had heard the Navigators before getting the Denon Mastersonics and the difference wasn't slight! Also, the Denon MS of No.3 I have here isn't a Blu-spec CD of course, just the vanilla CD remaster. But it sounds completely glorious anyway! (With or without a comparison).

I checked the original CD box and there is an almost imperceptible "Eurodisc" logo at the top. I don't recall seeing anyother CD here with that logo, so I had assumed it was an East German production that RCA had distributed here.
I was also delighted that the Blue Spec CDs play in a regular CD player, as I was under the impression that they would only play in a BDP. I had listened first in the Oppo BDP-105 but they also play in a Sony CD/SACD player in another system.

[richardfinegold]

A conductor in the same mould as Rudolf Kempe, Jean Martinon or Eduard van Beinum - profoundly musical and not hugely interested in his image, although I believe that he could be quite a strict task-master. I heard him conduct the Berlin Philharmonic and the Los Angeles Philharmonic, both times - very memorably - with Shostakovich symphonies in the programme. There is a well-known performance of Tchaikovsky's 4th:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tchaikovsky-Symphonies-Nos-DG-Originals/dp/B000001GQG/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1429440142&sr=1-3&keywords=Tchaikovsky+symphonies+nos+4+-+6+leningrad+philharmonic+orchestra

Don't know off-hand of any other non-Melodiya issues with the Leningrad Phil. As far as I know, the Berlin Symphony recordings were made with Eterna engineers. DG occasionally issued recordings made in East Germany (conducted by the likes of Heinz Rogner and Herbert Kegel) on Heliodor but I'm pretty sure that they were again from Eterna originals.

As to Sanderling's Sibelius, CD Japan (www.cdjapan.co.jp) - very efficient, great packaging, good prices and, so far, problem-free, customs-wise - will sell you the 2nd and 7th:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/KICC-3590

and the 4th:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/AVCL-25295

It's a Hybrid SACD so will play on any CD player - and it sounds very good indeed. Haven't tracked down the 3rd and 5th - yet.

I had read somewhere that Sanderling and Horenstein both had emigrated to the USSR with the rise of the Nazis and were employed there in the 1930s. Horenstein (who was originally from Kiev) found Stalinist Russia difficult and left but Sanderling was apparently more sympathetic to the Communist cause. He survived the purges and then took posts in the DDR.
At least one of Sanderling's sons, Thomas , became a Conductor. I used to have a Tchaikovsky Symphony with him leading an East German Orchestra.

[richardfinegold]

The Blue Spec Sanderling Brahms cycle is getting under my skin. AI'm listening to the Fourth now, after listening to the straight CD version last night. No question that the Blue Spec removes the proveribal veil from the CD; the Orchestra has so much more presence and for lack of a better word, oomph. The winds in particular (especially at the begining of II) can be appreciated in all their glory.

[Dave2002]

The Blue Spec Sanderling Brahms cycle is getting under my skin. AI'm listening to the Fourth now, after listening to the straight CD version last night. No question that the Blue Spec removes the proveribal veil from the CD; the Orchestra has so much more presence and for lack of a better word, oomph. The winds in particular (especially at the begining of II) can be appreciated in all their glory.

Richard

Is this one of the Blu Spec Brahms 'cds'? - http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/COCO-73160
I note that it is a Denon disc.

I've not tried any Blu Ray discs yet - and it's interesting to read that these ones seem to have a CD layer as well as a Blu Ray layer. From what you have written that is not always the case. Also, did you notice any clear difference in SQ between the CD layer and the Blu Ray. I'm guessing that you have multi-format kit which will play all the formats - whereas I'd have to switch between different boxes. There are other Blu Ray sets - for example of Wagner's Ring - and I wonder if those also have a CD layer.

Maybe something like this Oppo box would do - http://www.amazon.co.uk/OPPO-BDP-103...lu+ray+players - though how they can claim 2D to 3D video conversion I don't see - sounds like hype again.

Sanderling's Brahms does sound worth checking out - and the Blu Ray CD may be a good route to go, though somewhat more expensive. [Actually not too bad, providing the import and postage are manageable.]

Perhaps not a recommendation round here, but David Hurwitz gives Sanderling+Brahms a thumbs up! Should that count against it?

[richardfinegold]

Richard

Is this one of the Blu Spect Brahms 'cda'? - http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/COCO-73160
I note that it is a Denon disc.

I've not tried any Blu Ray discs yet - and it's interesting to read that these ones seem to have a CD layer as well as a Blu Ray layer. From what you have written that is not always the case. Also, did you notice any clear difference in SQ between the CD layer and the Blu Ray. I'm guessing that you have multi-format kit which will play all the formats - whereas I'd have to switch between different boxes. There are other Blu Ray sets - for example of Wagner's Ring - and I wonder if those also have a CD layer.

Maybe something like this Oppo box would do - http://www.amazon.co.uk/OPPO-BDP-103...lu+ray+players - though how they can claim 2D to 3D video conversion I don't see - sounds like hype again.

Sanderling's Brahms does sound worth checking out - and the Blu Ray CD may be a good route to go, though somewhat more expensive. [Actually not too bad, providing the import and postage are manageable.]

Perhaps not a recommendation round here, but David Hurwitz gives Sanderling+Brahms a thumbs up! Should that count against it?

Regarding Sanderling's Brahms, it is highly recommendable. It has been available in various CD formats. If you refer back to a few previous posts between me and jlw there is a discussion comparing the Eurodisc version and a previous release in the U.K. I just looked at the Amazon U.K. site and actually only the BluSpec versions are available. On the U.S. site the Eurodisc version can be had used for $3.00 and new for $7.00.
Sanderling reminds me a bit of Klemperer but with much greater flexibility of phrasing. The tempos are slowish but never stagnant, and he paces well so there is an inexorable build up of tension in movements such as 4/I. I really like how he controls the flow in 2/I and 2/II; in the wrong hands those can be deadly dull. The Orchestral playing was excellent; if you are familiar with Kempe's Strauss, you will know what to expect for the same vintage Dresden band.
Sanderling is my favorite Brahms's cycle. There are individual recordings of each Symphony that I may slightly prefer, but his is very consistent. Regarding David Hurwitz, you know what they say about the blind pig and the acorn...
I didn't realize that the Blue Spec discs had two layers. My first listen to them left an underwhelming impression, and I think that I may have been listening to the CD Layer, since I was not listening on my Oppo 105. Yesterday I was listening on the Oppo and I was duly impressed.

[AmpH]

A Blu spec cd is simply a Red Book CD which derives its name from the fact that a similar manufacturing process to that used for blu - ray discs ( ie a blue laser instead of the usual infra red laser ) is used to record the pits on the CD. Such CD's should play on all CD players and there are no dual or double layers ( as there are with hybrid SACD's for example ) as far as I am aware. I believe the theory is that this process leads to less distortion in the optical read-out process.

[richardfinegold]

A Blu spec cd is simply a Red Book CD which derives its name from the fact that a similar manufacturing process to that used for blu - ray discs ( ie a blue laser instead of the usual infra red laser ) is used to record the pits on the CD. Such CD's should play on all CD players and there are no dual or double layers ( as there are with hybrid SACD's for example ) as far as I am aware. I believe the theory is that this process leads to less distortion in the optical read-out process.

That was my understanding. I have 2 Digital Players in my two channel system--a Denon SACD/CD player with a 24/192 DAC, and the Oppo BD 105 (I had bought the Oppo to replace the Denon, because it plays more formats, but haven't been able to bring myself to replace the Denon because it sounds so smooth).
I had first played the Sanderlings on the Denon, figuring that it wouldn't matter, and only noticed a slight improvement vs the CDs. On the Oppo the difference
between the cD and the Blue Spec is very significant. I just replayed one on the Oppo and it indicates that it is playing CD, not Blu Ray. When Dave suggested
that the Blu Spec discs had two layers, I had thought that was the answer, but as I just stated the Oppo is clearly reading the disc as a CD.
Weird.

[Dave2002]

A Blu spec cd is simply a Red Book CD which derives its name from the fact that a similar manufacturing process to that used for blu - ray discs ( ie a blue laser instead of the usual infra red laser ) is used to record the pits on the CD. Such CD's should play on all CD players and there are no dual or double layers ( as there are with hybrid SACD's for example ) as far as I am aware. I believe the theory is that this process leads to less distortion in the optical read-out process.

Now I'm getting confused.

I found this - http://www.pureaudio-bluray.com/

and also this - http://www.naxos.com/blu-ray_audio.asp

Both seem to indicate that Blu Ray audio discs, or at least some of them, will only play on Blu Ray players. Blu Ray audio discs should be capable of higher quality sound - or at least what is currently being called hi-res - we can argue till the cows come home about whether the quality really is higher.

I can accept that there is a different form of CD disc, which is optimised for blue lasers, and there might be a spec for those calle Blu spec, but they would surely not be the same as Blu Ray discs.

Richard's observations about the behaviour of the discs he has on his players doesn't tie in with what seems to be declared by other authorities. If his discs can indeed be played on CD players, then surely either they must have a CD standard layer, or not be recorded at anything other than 16/44 - and hence not "hi-res", which would rather defeat the purpose of them.

I suppose there could be other possibilities which I/we don't know about. tertium non datur.

[johnb]

From what I can gather we are talking about two distinct types of disc: Blu Ray (which can only be played on Blu-Ray capable players) and Blu Spec CDs (which are manufactured utilising blue laser techniques but are CDs nevertheless).

[Dave2002]

From what I can gather we are talking about two distinct types of disc: Blu Ray (which can only be played on Blu-Ray capable players) and Blu Spec CDs (which are manufactured utilising blue laser techniques but are CDs nevertheless).

That makes some sort of sense, though in that case why should there be such a difference in quality as Richard has noticed/reported? Snake oil - or something else? Does the greater accuracy of Blu Spec CDS reduce timing errors/jitter perhaps, or simply reduce the number of errors which get corrected? Years ago I had a much older CD player, and that had the ability to report (accurately?) the number of errors, which I always thought was around a big fat zero, so that wouldn't appear to be a reason for any half way decent modern player. I'm sure Richard is hearing an improvement, but why?

[Miles Coverdale]

Just noticed Dave's point about SHM-SACDs. The Universal issues which I've seen (in Hong Kong, most recently) are NOT hybrids, but SACD-only. They are really expensive, even in Japan. They are also, as Dave surmises, 2-channel. Although the 2-channel SACD-ised Sanderling/Sibelius 4th (not SHM) sounds wonderfully natural, Jayne is right to be suspicious. Others I've bought (the Esoteric issue of the Klemperer Ludwig/Wunderlich Mahler DLvdE, for instance) make what is a fine analog recording sound almost unpleasant.

I have three SHM-SACDs of non-classical repertoire. In one case, I've had the album in question in a variety of formats: original pressing LP, re-issure LP, CD, CD with HDCD processing, and SACD. The SACD sound far and away the best. They fairly expensive (about £20), but very much worth it to my ears.

[richardfinegold]

From what I can gather we are talking about two distinct types of disc: Blu Ray (which can only be played on Blu-Ray capable players) and Blu Spec CDs (which are manufactured utilising blue laser techniques but are CDs nevertheless).

That was my original understanding. I became confused by Dave's post. after rereading the subject yesterday on CNET, it appears that Blue Spec apparently uses the same type of laser that Blu Ray uses but burns the pits into a conventional CD and not a Blu Ray disc. I still don't know why the improvement vs the standard CD should be IMO so much more apparent on a BDP than compared to a CD player.