SHM-CD reissues from Japan

[Dave2002]

Just to confirm Dave - I did already have the Sanderling Mahler and Sibelius on BCs to compare... and was well-pleased when I did so... my favourite Toshibas mentioned back in the thread were also compared directly with Euro issues.

Hi Jayne

Thanks for that. I have no problem where anyone has done the comparison, and indeed as I mentioned, I would like to know about such good quality recordings.

I'll probably try at least one of the Sanderling issues, or some of your other Japanese suggestions then. Please keep them coming.
Could you please indicate the cases when/where you have actually compared the different available versions, though. I'll try to do the same, if I do get multiple versions - or otherwise indicate when I've not made a comparison.

[HighlandDougie]

Dave

I would be the last person ever to sermonise about large box sets (I don't much like some Mercury recordings but somehow Volume 3 of the Mercury Living Presence series has been added to Volumes 1 and 2 - at Amazon Italy prices it was almost as cheap as chips ......) so I think that we are coming from the same place. As always, there is a balance to be struck: Japanese pressings/re-masterings can be ludicrously expensive, even in Japan, for what, frankly, can sound unmusical. But ...... there seems to be a respect in Japan not only for the music and its performance but also for how it might be reproduced. Hence the care over re-mastering, pressings etc - and we are talking about bog-standard CDs here (like the Sanderling Mahler/Sibelius/Brahms etc). Given the service which I've experienced from Japanese sellers - either directly or via the Amazon Marketplace - I'd rather pay just a little bit more for a performance which is reputed to be a bit special (the Sanderling Mahler 10th, for example) in what I know should be a good-quality pressing, although I freely admit that it might sound no better than the Berlin Classics version. And on speed of dispatch, the Previn/Walton 1st brought to our attention by Jayne, which I ordered from Japan at 8am this morning, had been dispatched before 9.30am. Oh, and the packaging is always impeccable.

HD

[Dave2002]

HD

Wasn't it Nielsen/Previn? I'd be interested to hear how you get on with that one.

I'm wondering about some of the ones (**) recommended I think by rfg - Sibelius/Abbravanel perhaps.

[** Not necessarily SHM but remasteings or new versions which sound significantly better than any previous versions, for whatever reasons.]

Did we ever have a thread for recordings we thought really superb - sound quality wise that is?

I'd have to think carefully about that if I were to propose any. Also, having listened earlier today to Songs of the Auvergne sung by Victoria de los Angeles on R3, which I'm sure in the past was heralded as an outstanding recording, I wonder whether the balance in more modern recordings is somewhat different. When that Canteloube LP was made there were probably sensible reasons for focusing on the voice, and altering the balance between the orchestra and the soloist, but nowadays some balance people may favour a more realistic balance, where the soprano would not be given such a boost over the orchestra, and it might be feasible to get something more realistic. That again raises questions about whether recordings should be realistic anyway - maybe some tinkering by engineers is justified to try to "correct" some "faults" in the music. Earlier I mentioned Hugo d'Alton as a mandolin player who used to play in some very large works in the 1960s - probably most of the time his efforts were inaudible in concerts, but in recordings there probably was some "adjustment" - was that justified? Some will say yes, others no!

Some of the recordings from the 1960s and 70s which I like a lot have a spotlighted soloist, though sometimes that went too far. I don't like some of Jacqueline du Pré's recordings because the orchestra sounds dim and distant. Itzhak Perlman's recordings are also a bit problematic - one has to learn to like them.

[richardfinegold]

I listened to another SHM disc. This is an album of Brahms Piano Music played by Radu Lupu recorded by Decca in the late 1970s. I have had this recording since it was issued (albeit iwth a long hiatus from lp to CD). I compared this SHM to a recent reissuing contained in a large box devoted to Lupu.
The Japanese issue is remastered at a lower level, and one has to adjust the volume settings for this. My first impression was that there was no difference, but gradually I began to perceive that the low bass notes tend to have more body and a prolonged decay, and that the high treble notes ring out a bit truer. The all important midrange--where most music lives--doesn't seem appreciably different.
If you have prior issues of the Lupu, I wouldn'trush to buy this as the differences are not revelatory, but subtle. Your mileage may vary.

[Dave2002]

It's worth doing a search for "SHM Japan" to see what comes up. There are quite a few sites which state that it's just marketing snake oil, yet there are others which suggest that a lot depends on what the CDs are. As with the first few posts on this topic, there are people who have the SHM versions, and also other versions of the same music, and in some cases they mention a significant improvement in sound quality. If we try to explain this in terms of digital "carriers" it doesn't really make sense, if we believe that reconstructing an electrical output to drive the speakers is always as near as makes no matter perfect. The range of responses seems to be between

"it's digital, 0s and 1s - they can't sound any different"

"there are differences - but they are subtle"

"the differences between versions is like night and day"

with some people suggesing that

"the differences are significant on some discs (and an improvement) while on others there are no significant differences"

Some suggest the whole SHM thing is a marketing trick.

Others think the differences are real, but that the SHM concept is a smoke screen, and the real reason that some SHM discs (might) sound better is because the are (re-) mastered differently. If this is the case, then some SHM discs may indeed be worth investigating, but the problem then becomes "which ones?"

Several have commented on price differentials, and a general view seems to be that if the differences are marginal or non existent they are not worth paying for, but if the price differences are relatively small, and if some SHM CDs genuinely do provide a better experience, then they are worthwhle.

This page seems to have many of the views expressed above - http://askville.amazon.com/SHM-CD-Ja...estId=41341182

Jayne's post (#2) suggests that there are differences - probably due to remastering - in some cases.

Remastering could take sevaral forms. A lot would also depend on what access there was to the original recorded material. In some cases only the final mix would be available, so fairly simple things could be done - adjust the frequency response, try to remove hiss where obtrusive, modify the dynamic range. For stereo the soundstage width could be modified.

Where access to pre-mix material is possible, the sound mix could be rebalanced.

More drastic remastering could modify the apparent acoustic in which the sounds are set. This is amazingly easy to do with modern digital tools if one starts off with a fairly "dry" recording. Getting a recording to sound as if it was recorded in a football stadium or a bathroom is quite easy to check out using the playback settings on some computers or using some audio software. Perhaps that is what is being done in some cases. However, although it is quite easy to "enhance" the apparent acoustics by adding reverberation to give a feeling for a recording location, converting a reverberant recording - to a dryer, crisper sound would be much harder - probably impossible.

Our OP - makropoulos - does make the point that in some recordings there are significant differences, and others have supported that view. Further investigation is needed I think, though explanations may be difficult to come by in every case. Some sites give English translations of Japanese, whcih read like amusing gibberish - nothing new there, then! It may be very hard to discern any sense from sentences originally written in Japanese, and only Japanese speakers would have a chance of unearthing any significant meaning based on sound principles.

It seems likely that the "explanations" given by the marketing/advertising people are incorrect, but that doesn't mean that in some cases the results are not worth having.

[jayne lee wilson]

Dougie made the point in #55 that the Japanese specials under discussion don't usually "re-engineer" (unlike, say, Pristine XR or Ambient - though they do it very well, and sensitively) and this is why we often value them so much - you simply hear more of everything compared to a GROC or standard EMI etc. I've not heard any that completely change the character or "setting" of a recording. Downside is, as I've said, the warts-and-all can occasionally make it harder to listen too - but at least it's clearer why!

That Cluytens' Roussel 3/4 was very instructive, with the excellent Testament issue a little smoother, more contained, but perhaps easier on the ears than the Toshiba which was occasionally a bit edgy - but more open, revealing and dynamic... you do learn a lot about how the classical recordings we love so much (and our judgements of their relative merits...) are the product of engineers' choices and trade-offs. Much time-limited scrutiny and adjustment...

[Dave2002]

Jayne

Toe in the water - trying the Mahler 10 - and hopefully it'll be one of the good Japanese ones you and HD have been writing about. I'm not even sure if it's going to be an SHM disc, or if I should make a definite attempt to target one of them. I was going to do the Nielsen 1/Previn too, but I thought that two in one batch might attrace HMRC attention, and I wasn't sure if the Nielsen by itself was below the import threshold. I think it is, but perhaps only just. In one of your earlier posts you mention that this can be a bit hit and miss - fair do's, but I hope to strike lucky.

Reading the bumf suggests it'll be here in about a week.

In msg 1 there is mention of SHM-SACDs. Are they usually hybrids with a CD layer? Anyone tried those, and are they slightly more expensive, or would I be betting my house away going for them? I assume usually 2 channel only.

[jayne lee wilson]

No, the KingRecord Mahler 10 isn't an SHM. Just excellent, subtle remastering. Do remember all SHM-CD's, er, "inventors" ever claimed was that the polycarbonate - the plastic coating - is better quality, i.e "clearer"! With the suggestion that it's easier for the laser to read the disc... I don't really buy it, given the powerful, inaudible error-correction in a CD player. But let's not get into all that now eh?

There's some possibility that SHMs may induce less jitter I guess, but that one direct comparison I did (the Kubelik BPO Schumann) was equivocal, to say the least. Perhaps a little bit better... Ill carve out time for another go...but if anyone asked me on the basis of those I'd say "don't bother" with an SHM-CD...

For me it's mostly about mastering at one end, and high-quality, innovative processing (mainly filtering, in DACs and players) at the other.

***the Japanese sellers on Amazon like Samurai & JapanSelect usually send discs out one at a time. Aren't they sweet?

[HighlandDougie]

I have always loved the Sanderling Brahms Symphony recordings with the Staatskapelle Dresden, despite the rather rough - sounding RCA issues. A recent part purchase of a collection yielded these recordings on DENON Mastersonic CD's .......... and what a revelation, in terms of audio quality, they have proved to be, with the performances now emerging from my PRoAC's and Harbeths in full, natural and detailed sound. I may try and seek out some more ........

I've just received my s/hand copy of the 3rd -

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00008BDCY/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

Barely recognisable as the same recording as:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brahms-Syms-2-3-Sanderling/dp/B000026GOR/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1429107225&sr=1-2&keywords=brahms+symphony+no+3+sanderling

"Full, natural and detailed", is a great description. Glorious, dark-hued orchestral playing from the Dresden Staatskapelle in a warm but clear acoustic. The 2nd was ordered last week so 1st and 4th to follow.

[HighlandDougie]

Jayne

Toe in the water - trying the Mahler 10 - and hopefully it'll be one of the good Japanese ones you and HD have been writing about. I'm not even sure if it's going to be an SHM disc, or if I should make a definite attempt to target one of them. I was going to do the Nielsen 1/Previn too, but I thought that two in one batch might attrace HMRC attention, and I wasn't sure if the Nielsen by itself was below the import threshold. I thik it is, but perhaps only just. In one of your ealier posts you mention that this can be a bit hit and miss - fair dos, but I hope to strike lucky.

Reading the bumf suggests it'll be here in about a week.

In msg 1 there is mention of SHM-SACDs. Are they usually hybrids with a CD layer? Anyone tried those, and are they slightly more expensive, or would I be betting my house away going for them? I assume usually 2 channel only.

Just noticed Dave's point about SHM-SACDs. The Universal issues which I've seen (in Hong Kong, most recently) are NOT hybrids, but SACD-only. They are really expensive, even in Japan. They are also, as Dave surmises, 2-channel. Although the 2-channel SACD-ised Sanderling/Sibelius 4th (not SHM) sounds wonderfully natural, Jayne is right to be suspicious. Others I've bought (the Esoteric issue of the Klemperer Ludwig/Wunderlich Mahler DLvdE, for instance) make what is a fine analog recording sound almost unpleasant.

[jayne lee wilson]

I wonder if anyone else here has got around to the King transfers of the Sanderling Sibelius 7th Symphony or Nightride? They're truly special. After about 6'00 in Nachtritter there's that astonishing passage when the winds have almost canonic counterpoints on the "riding" rhythm, and the strings cut across them with the broad noble theme, then the winds imitate that idea, and so on... the physical sense of the orchestra moving point-to-point through this strange, complex score is thrilling - you feel you get to know the woodwinds as individuals! The subtler gradation of dynamics on the remaster lends real flow to the music, then the impact of the low brasses (and their dark, rich metallics) at the climax is unbridled!
With the 7th, what seemed merely a very good recording on BC is revealed as an out-and-out great one. That extended adagio for the strings, before the trombone comes in, is utterly mesmerising - "beauty is truth, truth beauty" on the King transfer.

I feel privileged to have heard them.

[Dave2002]

The only one of the Sanderling/King remastered series I've managed to track down is that of Sibelius 1 and 6. The recording with the Seventh doesn't appear to be available. Maybe I should try the 1 and 6 anyway - it doesn't seem too expensive right now.

[richardfinegold]

I had ordered the K. Sanderling/Dresden/Brahms cycle from cdjapan and it arrived today. these are Blu Spec discs, one per Symphony. The price per disc isn't bad but given the short timings maybe not such a bargain. Comparison to my CDs (RCA recycling material from the DDR) there is a slight improvement, mainly in the mid range, which loses some digital hash, particularly in the strings. Otoh, the top end actually sounds constricted compared to the CDs. Since the midrange is more important, I find these an improvement over the original, but the gain is modest at best.

[jayne lee wilson]

I guess your original CDs are the Eurodisc ones, Richard? They might be better than the Navigators...

I think most of us had heard the Navigators before getting the Denon Mastersonics and the difference wasn't slight! Also, the Denon MS of No.3 I have here isn't a Blu-spec CD of course, just the vanilla CD remaster. But it sounds completely glorious anyway! (With or without a comparison).

[Dave2002]

I thought I'd found a bargain for the Sanderling Sibelius set - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00CLHMJY...8KVEHX4HDPS2C4 but I think the price has gone up a few pounds since, so now (around £18) it's not much cheaper than the Berlin set - http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0000035O...YZY5GMT1E3HY7V (around £21)

I've only tracked down one version of what I assume is a Japanese pressing - that's of symphonies 1 and 6.
I've been trying to preview/sample some of the Sibelius from napster and/or spotify, but not very successfully. I wasn't expecting the quality to be to the same level as the CDs, but there seem to have been some major problems with streaming recently, which at times sounds like a tape going wrong.

I don't know too much about Kurt Sanderling - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Sanderling On the face of it, since he lived in what was East Germany for quite a long period from about 1960 his travel and exposure in other countries might have been somewhat restricted, though he was clearly permitted to travel to the UK to conduct the Philharmonia. Also, were some of his earlier recordings with the Berlin SO made by engineers from East German recording engineers, or were recording engineers from outside brought in to help, as apparently happened with the reccordings of Beethoven symphonies by Konwitschny with the Leipzig Gewandhaus orchestra?

Also, are there any recordings of him with the Leningrad PO? A quick and brief search finds some recordings under the title "The Soviet Years" with the Leningrad State PO.