SHM-CD reissues from Japan

[richardfinegold]

Another "item of interest" turns up...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nielsen-Symphony-No-Andre-Previn/dp/B000SM6ZG8/ref=pd_rhf_eeolp_p_img_7

ordered as soon as seen......last encountered this as a very fine HDTT needle drop at 24/96, muted clicks n'all...
Glorious performance! Hope this BMG improves on those cutely attired Navigators at least...

(Reviewed Gram., 9/67, RL, "overwhelming artistic superiority" compared to the Ormandy..)

The Amazon link that you provided seems to indicate it is a plain CD, unless I missed something...

[jayne lee wilson]

The Amazon link that you provided seems to indicate it is a plain CD, unless I missed something...

Yes of course it is... my hope is that it's a better transfer than the old Navigators usually managed. (When RCA remastered the Gould/Martinon Nielsen 2/4 (from Navigators to Classic Library) the results were spectacular)...the Previn Nielsen 1 has been largely forgotten since the LP came out.

These things are often a gamble - or a calculated risk. Where the tracks are identical to the original LP (often with a replica cover) there's a good chance of a careful remastering, especially after about 2006 or so... a few years ago I got some Japanese BMGs of Munch/BSO in Honegger, Roussel and Martinu (rec.1950s, transfers 2006) that were really stunning, so it's another hit and hope. Just a cost/benefit analysis really - risk v possible reward!

Sometimes it goes against you and all you hear are the faults of the recording itself revealed the more clearly - worst case I had was the CSO/Giulini Stravinsky Petrushka/Firebird Suites album on EMI-Toshiba. AWFUL dynamic compression...Jochum's Dresden Bruckner 8 adagio suffered from this too...

And when you introduce SHM-CD, HQCD and SACD, the waters get really muddy...

Here they are, sorry about the prices...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Honegger-Symphonies-Roussel-Bachus-Ariane/dp/B002EBDNKC/ref=sr_1_20?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1428452140&sr=1-20&keywords=Munch+Roussel

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Martinu-Sym-Piston-Lt/dp/B000K2QL1A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1428454006&sr=8-2&keywords=munch+martinu+6

I never heard the differently coupled European issues of these, but the space, detail and dynamics, the sheer presence, are ungainsayable...

[richardfinegold]

This is probably OT, but I was listening to a recording from the 2nd large Mercury Box, Dorati/Minneapolis Respighi disc. Absolutely stunning recording.

[Dave2002]

Here they are, sorry about the prices...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Honegger-Symphonies-Roussel-Bachus-Ariane/dp/B002EBDNKC/ref=sr_1_20?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1428452140&sr=1-20&keywords=Munch+Roussel

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Martinu-Sym-Piston-Lt/dp/B000K2QL1A/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1428454006&sr=8-2&keywords=munch+martinu+6

Indeed!

2 new from £1,054.43

2 used from £30.15 (Martinu/Piston)

I never heard the differently coupled European issues of these, but the space, detail and dynamics, the sheer presence, are ungainsayable...

[jayne lee wilson]

Indeed!

2 new from £1,054.43

2 used from £30.15 (Martinu/Piston)

AS with most of these, when I bought them from HMV Japan they were budget reissues, for about £4-£6 each... you just had to order a few at a time to avoid customs/parcelforce overcharges...

[HighlandDougie]

The Sanderling Mahler 10 is just out, only heard a few minutes from the scherzo but -

What a wonderful performance! The orchestral playing may not be up to the exalted standards of the VPO under Harding (but what is) but Sanderling displays a masterly understanding of the music. The sound on the Japanese CD pressing has plenty of depth and warmth - and, at MusicJapan's price (see Amazon Marketplace), it's a real bargain.

[richardfinegold]

Just received my order from cdjapan and played the first disc, Karajan/BPO in Nielsen 4.
Without mincing words, this is one of the worst sounding recordings that I have ever heard. I thought I had an lp around to compare but can't find it. I also have not owned this recording in any previous format, so I can't judge how much of this bad sound is due to remastering vs how bad the original may have been. The recording date listed on the CD is 1982. The sound is leagues away from the Decca/Blomstedt/SFSO recording of 1988 and also obliterated by the Martinon/Chicago
CD remastering of a mid 1960s vintage.
Strings are dull with no bloom. No rasp or natural horn sounds. Woodwinds sound like they have a blanket over them and both timps in the finale sounds like they have have gauze on the sticks. The soundstage is wide--the brass entrances seemed to come from the bedroom next to the listening room--but shallow and 2 dimensional, with no sense of front to back spacing. And there is no sense of any hall ambience, or air around the instruments, whatsoever. The whole thing reminded me of a freeze dried packaging of what may have been a gourmet meal. The phrase 'constipated' kept coming to mind.
Again, I would like to obtain some other format of this recording for comparison. There are several shops in bicycling range that sell used lps and cds and I think I remember seeing something in one of them. The weather is fine here and that will be a project for tomorrow (it will also have the virtue of getting me away from my wife and her very long list of spring cleaning jobs).
Avoid this unless you must have every Karajan recording in every format ever issued.

[jayne lee wilson]

Sorry for your disappointment, Richard... as I implied in #3 and #47 above, I'd go in fear of buying a CD just because it's an "SHM"... "super high materials"... doesn't sound too promising does it?

See my earlier clues... but it's always going to be hard to tell which issues are genuine remasters UNLESS you can scrutinise the back of the inlay... I've just received the BMG Japan LSO/Previn Nielsen 1, very pleased to see "24/96 remastering from original analogue sources" on the back. Just started playing it and to judge from the Saul and David Act 2 Prelude, it's wonderful: rich, full and brilliant; close but perfectly balanced in Kingsway Hall. Terrifically revealing of that particular 1967 LSO sound with Previn at the helm. Gamble won! (this time...). This CD has the same lovely, shiny cherry-red RCA label as those Munch issues I mentioned - another clue to remember...

But wait a minute, what's this? Khachaturian's Piano Concerto is here as a fill-up, with the RPO and Lorin Hollander from 1964! An unexpected bonus...!
(Lionel Salter, Gramophone 1/66: "the piano cannot charge him with assault and battery, but my ears can..." The Nielsen 1 review is in 9/67, RL.)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Nielsen-Symphony-No-Andre-Previn/dp/B000SM6ZG8/ref=pd_rhf_eeolp_p_img_7

This appears to be in the same series too... not in the market for it myself, but a true classic it certainly is...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000SM6ZI6/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=

Late Edit... Oh I give up. After seeing the comments about the Walton on Amaz., I ordered the damn thing anyway - and it has Bashmet in the Viola Concerto as a "fill-up"....

[Dave2002]

What a wonderful performance! The orchestral playing may not be up to the exalted standards of the VPO under Harding (but what is) but Sanderling displays a masterly understanding of the music. The sound on the Japanese CD pressing has plenty of depth and warmth - and, at MusicJapan's price (see Amazon Marketplace), it's a real bargain.

But is it realy worth paying more for a CD from Japan?

Berlin Classics - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symph...ling+Mahler+10 (About a tenner, or a bit more than half that from t' Marketplace)

Japanese import - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Sym-S...ling+Mahler+10 (Around £15)

[HighlandDougie]

But is it realy worth paying more for a CD from Japan?

Berlin Classics - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Symph...ling+Mahler+10 (About a tenner, or a bit more than half that from t' Marketplace)

Japanese import - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mahler-Sym-S...ling+Mahler+10 (Around £15)

Amazon UK appears to have multiple listings of the Mahler 10th. If you want a cheaper Japanese copy, see

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00LY9WB9E/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

where you will find it from Music Japan at about £8 including postage to the UK. On the more general issue of whether it's worth paying more for Japanese pressings, well, I suppose that it might be a case of never mind the quality, feel the width. If price is the main criterion then, no, probably not. But, if, like me you've spent too much money on hi-fi equipment and want to hear recordings in as good quality as possible, then I think that the answer is "yes", within reason, of course. I wouldn't spend a vast sum more but I am prepared to pay a bit more for quality pressings, which do seem to sound better. But it shouldn't be forgotten that if the original recording wasn't particularly wonderful in the first place (step forward Richard F's Karajan Nielsen 4th - a joint product of the Philharmonie acoustic and Karajan knowing better than his sound team), it is quite likely to sound even worse when re-mastered (Oistrakh's Cleveland Brahms Violin Concerto springs to mind here). "Re-engineering" recordings, which can make them sound better, appears to be anathema to Japanese re-masterers - what was a sow's ear in the first place is most unlikely to turn into a silk purse in their hands. But if you don't mind spending a bit of money on a 4CD set and if you want to hear a really careful re-mastering (96khz/24bit using JVC K2 technology, whatever that might be) of wonderful music in sparkling performances, which sound significantly better than the original CD issues, I cannot think of anything better than this:

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/offer-listing/B000EBDCUA/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

Granted, for your £40 you could buy a whole slew of boxes of pre-copyright performances in sometimes poor transfers but I'd rather go for the quality than the width.

[jayne lee wilson]

Dougie puts it all perfectly... and that Kuijken is some find..(not more temptation....)... where will it end?

I would only add that out of my latest flutter, the Mahler 10 and the Nielsen 1 stand out as especially glorious - musically and sonically top-of-the-tree.

[Dave2002]

Just received my order from cdjapan and played the first disc, Karajan/BPO in Nielsen 4.
Without mincing words, this is one of the worst sounding recordings that I have ever heard. I thought I had an lp around to compare but can't find it. I also have not owned this recording in any previous format, so I can't judge how much of this bad sound is due to remastering vs how bad the original may have been. The recording date listed on the CD is 1982. The sound is leagues away from the Decca/Blomstedt/SFSO recording of 1988 and also obliterated by the Martinon/Chicago
CD remastering of a mid 1960s vintage.
Strings are dull with no bloom. No rasp or natural horn sounds. Woodwinds sound like they have a blanket over them and both timps in the finale sounds like they have have gauze on the sticks. The soundstage is wide--the brass entrances seemed to come from the bedroom next to the listening room--but shallow and 2 dimensional, with no sense of front to back spacing. And there is no sense of any hall ambience, or air around the instruments, whatsoever. The whole thing reminded me of a freeze dried packaging of what may have been a gourmet meal. The phrase 'constipated' kept coming to mind.
Again, I would like to obtain some other format of this recording for comparison. There are several shops in bicycling range that sell used lps and cds and I think I remember seeing something in one of them. The weather is fine here and that will be a project for tomorrow (it will also have the virtue of getting me away from my wife and her very long list of spring cleaning jobs).
Avoid this unless you must have every Karajan recording in every format ever issued.

I've just realised that this might be a performance which I have on CD, and which I have thoroughly enjoyed for years. If it's the same one, I picked it up cheap in Sweden around 1998, and played it over and over for weeks - I really enjoyed the timpani. Mine was a DG issue IIRC, and I haven't always been a fan of DG, and definitely not a consistent fan of Karajan.

Did Karajan record Nielsen 4 several times perhaps?

Maybe I need to listen again, or have my ears washed out. It could be that your version if it is remastered has actually worsened the sound. I know that "received wisdom" has been that Blomstedt's was the best, but I didn't feel the need to rush out to buy Blomstedt's version having heard Karajan's.

[Beef Oven!]

Amazon UK appears to have multiple listings of the Mahler 10th. If you want a cheaper Japanese copy, see

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00LY9WB9E/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new

where you will find it from Music Japan at about £8 including postage to the UK. On the more general issue of whether it's worth paying more for Japanese pressings, well, I suppose that it might be a case of never mind the quality, feel the width. If price is the main criterion then, no, probably not. But, if, like me you've spent too much money on hi-fi equipment and want to hear recordings in as good quality as possible, then I think that the answer is "yes", within reason, of course.

Many thanks for the link to the Mahler 10 Dougie. Purchased! (and thanks to Jayne on the Previn Walton, purchased!).

I think you've set out the rationale on all this, perfectly

[Dave2002]

Granted, for your £40 you could buy a whole slew of boxes of pre-copyright performances in sometimes poor transfers but I'd rather go for the quality than the width.

HD

I always try to balance quality versus cost. Some large box sets containing some very good performances now work out at £2 per CD or less, whereas a 24/96 or 24/192 download or SACD or Blue Ray audio might cost up to £20 for the same music. If there is a clear difference, then I would agree with you that, if one has the equipment and the funds to support it, that buying the higher quality version is often a good idea. On the other hand, the difference might fund one dinner out, or a concert ticket to a real live concert. The other issue is whether the perceived quality difference is real, or due to various forms of bias (expectation bias ....), and in the case of the Japanese CDs vs the rest of the world I doubt that many of us are going to buy both just to check that one is better/worse than the other.

I'm not actually disagreeing with you or Jayne - but simply suggesting that without having both (or sometimes several) versions for comparison it's not really possible to make a judgement, and of course having multiple versions means that the cost of the most expensive one will tend to dominate.

Where there really are "superb" recordings I do like to hear of them, though it seems that not everyone has the same view on this. Also, the replay equipment can make quite a big difference, though not always the way one might expect. Some recordings become really good on very good equipment, while others which sound OK simply sound "OK" again when played on the same type of equipment, and I also think that some recordings may sound worse. Matching recordings to the replay equipment is also an art, though few of us bother with that these days. The days of different grades of thorn needles are a very distant (non existent in my case) memory.

[jayne lee wilson]

Just to confirm Dave - I did already have the Sanderling Mahler and Sibelius on BCs to compare... and was well-pleased when I did so... my favourite Toshibas mentioned back in the thread (#25) were also compared directly with Euro issues. After a while you do get a feel for that extra truthfulness, spaciousness and depth without needing comparison. (Sonically, the nearest European issue I've heard recently is that Berglund/COE Sibelius on Finlandia, especial 4,6 and 7).

It's often about individual listening habits of course... these days I tend to savour an album or a small group of albums for days, and one or two composers for weeks... so 24-bit files or Special Issue CDs give me the pleasure I seek on a good, revealing system. It reminds me a bit of those early LP purchases, where every purchase was weighed, savoured and lingered over, a side at a time...

I get a headache just looking at a large box set, but for someone else ........ so it goes.