SHM-CD reissues from Japan

[jayne lee wilson]

AS for finding them - I can never succeed with links to Amazon, but try putting "Sanderling Sibelius Import" into the search box - you'll see the yellow and white King Record/Deutsche Schallplatten issue of 1 and 6 quickly - it's still very cheap! Try same for Mahler 10 - a multicoloured abstract cover. This cost me around £8 inc delivery, but as so often the price has already changed - and onemoretime... trustful sellers incl JapanSelect, MusicJapan and SamuraiMedia. OH and I had to search for some of them (the Sibelius 4 with the b/w photo) on French Amazon instead... it's all about passion, you see..

(And then there's Denon Mastersonics, then the Denon cocqs and cocos....

Even later edit... not having compared them directly before, I tried the Mahler 10 scherzo on the Berlin Classics issue, then the new King KICC one - wow! The smoother, more detailed high violins, greater depth & resolution within the orchestra, then the more open, less congested first climax...classic Japanese qualities, all thrillingly apparent. And remember I bought this on trust after earlier experiences...

[Nick Armstrong]

ah! Many have sought answers, few have found them.

I can never succeed with links to Amazon

... are they different from any other links?

Is this for instance the 'black and white' cover for the Sibelius 4 you've talked about?

http://www.amazon.co.jp/ドイツ伝統の響き-シリーズ15-クルト・ザンデルリンクの芸術-シベリウス-SACD-Hybrid/dp/B000219QGG/ref=sr_1_10?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1427603493&sr=1-10&keywords=sibelius+sanderling

[HighlandDougie]

... are they different from any other links?

Is this for instance the 'black and white' cover for the Sibelius 4 you've talked about?

http://www.amazon.co.jp/ドイツ伝統の響き-シリー...ius+sanderling

Or, slightly more accessible:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/AVCL-25295

for the 4th, plus

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/KICC-3564

for Sanderling's 1st and 6th (also readily available at Amazon at http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Sym...ibelius+import)

One of my current favourites is the DG Abbado/BPO Mussorgsky disc:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/UCCG-90325

Never a wonderful recording in its original CD guise (the Philharmonie is somewhat intractable as a recording venue), it has been markedly improved for this SHM-CD version.

[Nick Armstrong]

That's what I'm talking about! - some links, so we can be sure we're all discussing the same thing. Cheers HD.

[richardfinegold]

Some of the posts above, cheering on ignorance, are very disappointing... Look guys. BUY one. MAKE SURE you have the European issue to hand (don't matter which, Berlin Classics, EMI - Forte, GROC, Testament, oh whatever... )

Listen and compare**. On any system capable of revealing fine differences (between say, VPO and BPO) you'll hear: more vivid acoustic, clearer definition of instrumental individuals & orchestras within their performance space, finer timbral definition, clearer, smoother HF - above all, greater presence AND naturalness - similar (but not identical to) the best of 24-bit. An attentive listener should hear those qualities (the bigger & more open the soundstage the better, of course...). Whether you respond to them is up to you. (Rather like fine wine, really...some people just want to get wrecked, don't matter what on).

I can recall the first time I saw "Toshiba-Emi 24-bit remaster" on Amazon - Richter/Maazel in Bartok 2 and Prok 5. I bought it out of a passion for beautiful music & great sound - out of sheer curiosity. After listening (oh, it was quite a session - I didn't need any comparison to twig this level of quality ) I visited HMV Japan, carefully sifting and selecting a further 12 issues.
Now, why d'you think I'd DO that guys? Self-bloody-delusion? They weren't cheap to get here, right? (though at the time, 2007, about £4 per disc - the delivery costs doubled that. Customs, bless 'em, overlooked THIS package).

AS to what the remastering engineers do - ah! Many have sought answers, few have found them. Google "Yoshio Okazaki" (the name which used to be credited as remastering engineer on the TOCEs), you find nothing.
It can only be down to - better sources, better equipment, MORE TIME SPENT ON EACH ONE, A DEDICATED COMPANY PHILOSOPHY, AN INDIVIDUAL ENGINEER'S EARS, PASSION & DEVOTION. Japan has always tended to have a greater passion for high-end hifi than GB or Europe, so the market for these issues here is limited, as is the market for high-end equipment. And at one time some hifi manufacturers would voice equipment for GB with a sweeter, less exacting sound than elsewhere, as it was felt that we preferred that to all-revealingness, warts & all. This could easily have affected CD versions too.

But THE HAPPY FEW who discovered them any which way, soon knew we were onto something...ALL WE HAD TO DO WAS LISTEN... Whether there'll be any more is doubtful, under the various pressure of the diversified market, HD video, streaming, computer audio, blu-ray etc etc....
Which is a shame - the great thing about those Toshibas was - you didn't need yet another machine to perceive, and submit to, their pleasures...

(**NOT that the comparison is the point of course - the musical experience itself is the addiction...)

Interesting.
I have been buying some cds from japan cd recently. One of them was a Zino Francescatti recording of the Bruch (1) VC, but it came as part of a 2 CD set with other warhorse VCs. One of these is the Sibelius VC, with Bernstein and the NYP. I know this recording very well, having listened to it for more than 40 years (the Sibelius was the flip side of the Bruch on my lp) and I have the Sony CD reissue.
The Sibelius sounds significantly better in this Japanese source. More headroom, the timpani more colors, the clarinets more characterful, the solo viola that plays the subsidiary theme a bit more audible, and just more of a sense of an Orchestra in a real hall. The soloist still sounds spotlight vs. the Orchestra but not quite as close to the mike. There is no information about remastering on the cd, unless it is in Japanese somewhere.
So again, it begs a question: Are the SHM discs better sounding (presuming that they are, I won't get mine for about a week) due to remastering or how much of a role will the exotic materials that replace the polycarbonate make?

[mikealdren]

So again, it begs a question: Are the SHM discs better sounding (presuming that they are, I won't get mine for about a week) due to remastering or how much of a role will the exotic materials that replace the polycarbonate make?

Hi Richard,
Can you copy the CD to a CD-R when you get it to see whether it's the polycarbonate or the remastering? I'd love to know.

Mike

[Beef Oven!]

Thanks HighlandDougie et al. We're on the same page now.

I have a few Japan CDs. The closest one to hand is a Decca Bruckner 4, VPO Bohm. The Decca livery is all there, but there's much Japanese writing, including the entirety of the booklet. I bought it on Amazon from a Japanese vendor. I can't compare it to the original Decca CD that I had because it passed away some years back (hence the re-purchase). I have no idea about mastering etc, because it's all written in Watford and that's all bubble and squeak to me.

[richardfinegold]

Hi Richard,
Can you copy the CD to a CD-R when you get it to see whether it's the polycarbonate or the remastering? I'd love to know.

Mike

Sure. It would also be instructful to compare it to a SSHD

[jayne lee wilson]

... are they different from any other links?

Is this for instance the 'black and white' cover for the Sibelius 4 you've talked about?

http://www.amazon.co.jp/ドイツ伝統の響き-シリー...ius+sanderling

No, that's an SACD (different again) which I haven't heard (I don't DO SACD, don't trust the medium for sound scientific reasons, one of which is that most of them are made from PCM Masters anyway...).
The Sibelius 1/6 CD I've been enjoying is HD's 2nd listing (cheers Dougie), the yellow/white King Record KICC 3564 one - it should be very obvious on that Amazon "Import" search tag I suggested... 2/7 look almost identical, on KICC 3590.

(I'm afraid copy and paste is my personal web shibboleth, sorry, it's frustrating, I know... - I've never quite figured it out. Feel stupid about it. Advice gratefully taken!)

Sibelius Symphony No. 4 c/w Nightride and Sunrise is on King KICC 9469, "Deutsche Schallplatten" in red on front lower right, b/w photo of Orchestra/Sanderling in-hall...
Got that on French Amazon.

Toshiba sold out to EMI in 2007, after which the Special Issues came out under "EMI Music Japan". Now any few remaining just have Warners on them with different serial nos. - not helpful... I suspect the HMV Japan HQCDs are the real thing, though. Look for original LP cover art and track listing (you don't always get much min for your yen). Where covers and track selection/order are identical to the European issue, the sound is usually the same too - there are a few exceptions though).

In Europe the best transfers I've heard are on Paul Baily's work for Testament. His Cluytens' Roussel 3&4 comes within a whisker of the Toshiba - to the extent that I felt he'd chosen a slightly sweeter, more contained sound, easier on the ears perhaps... the TOCE was more revealing but at the expense of a few "old analogue" rough edges... but it's still the latter I prefer.

Favourites... that Roussel, Cluytens' Stereo Ravel, Boulez/Barenboim in Bartok 1&3, Ormandy's Lemminkainen Legends...Muti's Scriabin 3...
all of these EMI of course. These recent King Record Sibelius/Mahler releases we're a chance discovery (curiosity again!) but they really are among the best I've heard, especially given the quality of the BC sources..

[Nick Armstrong]

No, that's an SACD (different again) which I haven't heard (I don't DO SACD

Good to know, jayne... Neither do I !

[richardfinegold]

Good to know, jayne... Neither do I !

Not all SACDs are made from PCM transfers. Pentatone, BIS, Channel Classics, Linn, Cedille... all these companies everything in the DSD stage. And to be quite honest, the SACDs that pass through a PCM stage stil sound great to me.
I prefer SACDs to downloads. I can't even access half my High Res downloads at present because after doing the latest itunes update I am getting a message that they exist in some other folder, some bs that I can't make head or tails of. I am sure that after investing a few hours of frustration I will recover them, but...this never happens with an SACD; the worse that can happen is one flies out of the jewell case and lands behind the sofa. As I have said before, you can't beat plug and play.

[jayne lee wilson]

Not all SACDs are made from PCM transfers. Pentatone, BIS, Channel Classics, Linn, Cedille... all these companies everything in the DSD stage. And to be quite honest, the SACDs that pass through a PCM stage stil sound great to me.
I prefer SACDs to downloads. I can't even access half my High Res downloads at present because after doing the latest itunes update I am getting a message that they exist in some other folder, some bs that I can't make head or tails of. I am sure that after investing a few hours of frustration I will recover them, but...this never happens with an SACD; the worse that can happen is one flies out of the jewell case and lands behind the sofa. As I have said before, you can't beat plug and play.

Sorry Richard, but you're wrong about BIS and Linn. Look at the back page of any BIS SACD/CD booklet, it will say "original format 24bit/96khz" (or 24/44.1 etc). This has always been the case, as the very useful HiFiNews monthly analyses of hi-res downloads makes clear.
Similarly with Linn... the 24/96/192 file is "the true recording master". See...

http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-formats.aspx

...under "Studio Master".

I was aware that CC, Pentatone etc may be different, why I said "most SACDs..." You still need to check them individually though.
SACD via PCM within a player may be feeding you 24/96 off the disc (some Esoterics certainly do), but some DAC chips in these players are hybrids and you need to look carefully at the DAC architecture to see what you're actually getting at the output. If the player keeps DSD and PCM on two separate signal paths - great. It'll cost ya though!

You can now buy DSD downloads from Channel C of course. It's a shame you persist with iTunes, it can be really annoying, yes... but my MediaPlayer preferences don't need rehearsing again... !

[MrBear]

(I'm afraid copy and paste is my personal web shibboleth, sorry, it's frustrating, I know... - I've never quite figured it out. Feel stupid about it. Advice gratefully taken!)

Its really easy highlight the text you want to copy press Ctrl and c to copy
This puts it into the computers memory known as clipboard
Then move the cursor to where you want text to be and press Ctrl and v

The following pages may be useful

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut,_copy,_and_paste

http://lifehacker.com/5801525/help-new-pc-users-learn-how-to-copy-cut-and-paste

to copy those links I went to the relevant webpage double cliked on the web address to highlight it press ctlr and c to copy
switched back to this page and pressed ctrl v to pate above
I have encountered a couple of people before who have had this problem and once I have showed them they could do it

[Stunsworth]

Sorry Richard, but you're wrong about BIS and Linn. Look at the back page of any BIS SACD/CD booklet, it will say "original format 24bit/96khz" (or 24/44.1 etc). This has always been the case, as the very useful HiFiNews monthly analyses of hi-res downloads makes clear.
Similarly with Linn... the 24/96/192 file is "the true recording master". See...

http://www.linnrecords.com/linn-formats.aspx

...under "Studio Master"

I think some of the Linn Studio Masters have been created from DSD originals converted to PCM. I've been using some music analysis software called Musicscope, and looking at the frequency response.

Here's an analysis of the recent Barenboim Elgar 2 on DG. It's a 24/96 recording and the frequency response in the middle of the screenshot shows a gradually declining plot. Incidentally the vertical red line you can see in the bottom plot is the software's estimate of the highest music frequency in the file.




Here's a Linn track - it was from the Bruckner movement given away last Christmas. You can see that the frequency response rises after the cut off for the highest musical frequencies. I believe this is typical of a DSD recording.



So far I've not come across any 24/192 file that has musical information much above 48k. That leads me to believe that 192k recordings probably take up disk space without significant improvement in sound quality.

I've seen at least one 96k album that was brick walled at 24k, leading me to believe that it was a 48k recording padded out to 96k.

Of course I've only just started using the software, so I could be misinterpreting its results.

[richardfinegold]

I think some of the Linn Studio Masters have been created from DSD originals converted to PCM. I've been using some music analysis software called Musicscope, and looking at the frequency response.

Here's an analysis of the recent Barenboim Elgar 2 on DG. It's a 24/96 recording and the frequency response in the middle of the screenshot shows a gradually declining plot. Incidentally the vertical red line you can see in the bottom plot is the software's estimate of the highest music frequency in the file.




Here's a Linn track - it was from the Bruckner movement given away last Christmas. You can see that the frequency response rises after the cut off for the highest musical frequencies. I believe this is typical of a DSD recording.



So far I've not come across any 24/192 file that has musical information much above 48k. That leads me to believe that 192k recordings probably take up disk space without significant improvement in sound quality.

I've seen at least one 96k album that was brick walled at 24k, leading me to believe that it was a 48k recording padded out to 96k.

Of course I've only just started using the software, so I could be misinterpreting its results.

Yes I had read that Linn and BIS (Fanfare Interview with Robert von Bahr) have been recording in DSD.
I honestly can't tell the difference between a recording that was originally in DSD, passed through a PCM phase, and then transcribed back to DSD, vs a recording that stayed in the DSD domain the entire time. Perhaps jlw and others have more acute hearing than me.
i am contemplating buying a music server with an HD that will totally bypass a computer. No more itunes for me. I will have to wait until the funds allow but am looking at servers from NAD and wyred 4 sound.