CDs, downloads, streaming

[Ferretfancy]

It shouldn't matter if current formats are available or not (I tend to think they will be due to the number of downloads that have been made). There is already software available to convert between the various PCM formats - FLAC, ALAC etc., and software to convert between wildly different formats - PCM and MP3, PCM and DSD. I don't see why that shouldn't continue with new formats.

Stunsworth,

It has already happened to me. I still use an old Appleworks database programme to build a very large CD and DVD catalogue. If I decide to upgrade my Mac, I will lose the ability to open this application, as Apple have discontinued it. They don't want us to have backwards compatibility it would seem. No doubt there is something lurking somewhere online to help me out, but it should never have to be such rigmarole. We are not all IT designers or engineers, and should not have to be so.

[Don Petter]

[DP:]
Excuse my ignorance of modern mobile services (all mine can do is phone and text, which suits me fine), but don't you have to pay a second time, to the phone provider for data access?

Most streaming services (well Qobuz and Spotify at least) allow you to download music to your device (phone or tablet) before you leave home, so there's no data connection needed to listen to the music. Obviously you're still able to stream while on the move if that's what you want.


I also subscribe to the Qobuz lossless streaming service. This costs 20 Euros a month, but gives me access to a huge library of music. Again, I realise this isn't for everyone.

Downloading to your device before you leave home, and then listening from the memory, doesn't count as streaming for me.

But anyway that route also involves paying twice; Once to the download provider (and in the case of Qobuz, you've already paid them a subscription as well) and then again to your own ISP for the cost of the data transfer, even though it doesn't seem like it if it is within your monthly allowance. Agreed, you can then listen unlimited times at no further cost, but one reads that the trend is for portable devices to have much smaller memories (because of direct streaming), so soon you will need to be swapping what's in memory for something new.


I also have just subscribed to Qobuz (only at the cheapest rate of £4-99 a month for mp3 quality), as I've just found so many treasures in the items from the BnF (French National Library) collection, covering 78s and early LPs. I did download the bulk of the items I found interesting at 'CD quality' during a subscription free trial period. I'm slightly alarmed to see I've spent just over £135, even though the items must have averaged only two or three pounds each.

I thought I'd then start a low subscription just to see if I found much else. Their searching and annotation is not of the best. Surprisingly, many of the items do not appear at all on the main BnF collection site (Gallica), and where they do there is not much else to be gleaned - Original issue number and date if you're lucky, and maybe scans of the record labels, which can be quite interesting.

I keep downloads categorised on hard disc, and burn CD-Rs for home and car use.

[teamsaint]

A few further thoughts about the reasons why physical media such as CDs and print books are likely to remain with us for a good while yet.
I think that RichardF may well be right about streaming becoming the dominant format for “consuming” music in the next few years. But the fact is that for most publishers and presumably record companies, they need every available revenue stream for all their releases, so it may well be in their interests to have a physical product.
If you take the process from concept through to sale, you can see how this might work. The artists or company has an idea for a project, and revenue streams have to be projected. On a book project, you can then build in revenue for physical copies, as well as ebooks, (and on CDs of course streaming income).The bigger and more diverse the projected streams, the better chance it has of getting off the ground, of course.
In addition, physical media have some real advantages. Pre orders from trade are very valuable, and provide an instant return, which you certainly won’t get on streaming. They are also easier to market (especially to the press and TV/radio). They are still popular with core and niche markets, especially for high value/premium products), and they provide different markets such as direct sales at events( ever tried to sign a download, Or an e-book at an author signing?) and of course the important gift market. They also offer good opportunities for adding value, such as Amazon autorip.
Another vibrant feature of the current music market, and one taken from the publishing model that has been with us for ever, is the crowd funding model, which eases the risks for producers, and enables new product for niche markets to be delivered relatively risk free, and on time. (Anybody for a Petrenko complete Varese ?!)
Importantly, it isn’t necessarily just a loss leader. Books can be printed cheaply in really quite low quantities these days, 1000 or even fewer, and very low print runs and print on demand are quite economically viable, and the same is no doubt true for CDs.
importantly, there is still a big retail sector demanding product.

On backlist, or older product, again there are good reasons to retain physical, at least in certain circumstances. Culturally, physical media may be suffering a leak of sales into downloads and streaming, but there is still a great deal of demand. Paper books are still the vast bulk of the market, and “ Box Set “ culture is as strong with young buyers of series like The Wire as it is with FoR3 Forum Members. For publishers, with availability of short print or pressing runs, there should be no need for huge warehousing or production costs.
Physical media also give the producer a stronger chance of getting their product to a key market. I would suspect that getting income from a streaming, ( unless you have the marketing clout of DG or Sony) will be a matter of how much product you get listed. But if you know your market, especially if it is a little bit niche, the physical product gives you something to market and sell direct to your own market, a much stronger position to be in than relying on streaming income.

[Stunsworth]

Stunsworth,

It has already happened to me. I still use an old Appleworks database programme to build a very large CD and DVD catalogue. If I decide to upgrade my Mac, I will lose the ability to open this application, as Apple have discontinued it

The format for Appleworks documents isn't in the public domain, so either Apple will have to issue a migration tool, or someone would have to reverse engineer the format. Why Apple haven't issued a tool to assist moving to a more modern application is beyond me.

The difference between that and audio formats is the popular audio formats, MP3, Apple Lossless, FLAC etc, are all in the public domain. Indeed tools to convert between them all are already available - I use a program to convert FLAC to Apple Lossless when there's only a FLAC version available of a recording I want.

[Stunsworth]

Downloading to your device before you leave home, and then listening from the memory, doesn't count as streaming for me

It isn't streaming, but the point I was trying to make is that it's analogous to what someone would have to do to get their music onto a mobile device from a library such as iTunes

[Don Petter]

It isn't streaming, but the point I was trying to make is that it's analogous to what someone would have to do to get their music onto a mobile device from a library such as iTunes

Sorry. I'm revealing my ignorance here. I thought it was exactly the same, not analogous. Do not Qobuz, Spotify and Itunes all work in much the same way, allowing either streaming or downloading of their content?

[Dave2002]

Sorry. I'm revealing my ignorance here. I thought it was exactly the same, not analogous. Do not Qobuz, Spotify and Itunes all work in much the same way, allowing either streaming or downloading of their content?

I think some sites are now streaming only. I'm not quite sure why, but Spotify, for example, used to permit download against purchase - a feature which I know was appreciated by one of my friends, but I gather that that capability has now been turned off.

iTunes (the Store) is, AFAIK, only a download service for purchases.However, it is possible to listen to Internet radio (streamed) using iTunes software - including R3, though I recently commented on the poor quality of iTunes for R3 listening.

Downloaded material only has to be downloaded once, possibly might be higher quality, though may not be available instantly, and once installed on a suitable playback device, can be played anywhere, in "off-line" mode.

Streaming material can be quite good, but always requires an adequate connection. I'm not sure who suggested that it was OK to stream on the East Coast main line. My experience, and I've done the trip 5 or 6 times this year so far, is that it's not that good or reliable, using either 3G or on board WiFi. Maybe some trains are better, though I have sampled both electric and diesel hauled trains.

Buffering can help with both modes, particularly streaming, but won't help against major gaps in send/receive (e.g. a minute or more) such as can happen on a moving train.

PS: I just noticed Stunsworth's note on Spotify. It is possible, effectively, to temporarily download material in Spotify by turning on the off-line feature, but the content will be lost when this is turned off again.

[Don Petter]

I think some sites are now streaming only. I'm not quite sure why, but Spotify, for example, used to permit download against purchase - a feature which I know was appreciated by one of my friends, but I gather that that capability has now been turned off.

iTunes (the Store) is, AFAIK, only a download service for purchases.However, it is possible to listen to Internet radio (streamed) using iTunes software - including R3, though I recently commented on the poor quality of iTunes for R3 listening.

PS: I just noticed Stunsworth's note on Spotify. It is possible, effectively, to temporarily download material in Spotify by turning on the off-line feature, but the content will be lost when this is turned off again.

Thanks for that. I've only looked at these two on Wiki, where things are somewhat ambiguous and maybe out of date.

Of course, if you can stream (at home) you can presumably download using something like SoundLeech, though only in real time.

[Stunsworth]

Sorry. I'm revealing my ignorance here. I thought it was exactly the same, not analogous. Do not Qobuz, Spotify and Itunes all work in much the same way, allowing either streaming or downloading of their content?

They are similar. With iTunes you download a local copy from your iTunes library to the portable device, with Qobuz and Spotify you download the music from a remote server.

[Stunsworth]

PS: I just noticed Stunsworth's note on Spotify. It is possible, effectively, to temporarily download material in Spotify by turning on the off-line feature, but the content will be lost when this is turned off again.

Off line listening is possible if you have a premium account (£10 per month if I remember correctly).

https://support.spotify.com/uk/learn-more/guides/#!/article/Listen-offline

"You can sync a maximum of 3,333 songs per device and stay offline for up to 30 days. Enjoy!"

[richardfinegold]

A few further thoughts about the reasons why physical media such as CDs and print books are likely to remain with us for a good while yet.
I think that RichardF may well be right about streaming becoming the dominant format for “consuming” music in the next few years. But the fact is that for most publishers and presumably record companies, they need every available revenue stream for all their releases, so it may well be in their interests to have a physical product.
If you take the process from concept through to sale, you can see how this might work. The artists or company has an idea for a project, and revenue streams have to be projected. On a book project, you can then build in revenue for physical copies, as well as ebooks, (and on CDs of course streaming income).The bigger and more diverse the projected streams, the better chance it has of getting off the ground, of course.
In addition, physical media have some real advantages. Pre orders from trade are very valuable, and provide an instant return, which you certainly won’t get on streaming. They are also easier to market (especially to the press and TV/radio). They are still popular with core and niche markets, especially for high value/premium products), and they provide different markets such as direct sales at events( ever tried to sign a download, Or an e-book at an author signing?) and of course the important gift market. They also offer good opportunities for adding value, such as Amazon autorip.
Another vibrant feature of the current music market, and one taken from the publishing model that has been with us for ever, is the crowd funding model, which eases the risks for producers, and enables new product for niche markets to be delivered relatively risk free, and on time. (Anybody for a Petrenko complete Varese ?!)
Importantly, it isn’t necessarily just a loss leader. Books can be printed cheaply in really quite low quantities these days, 1000 or even fewer, and very low print runs and print on demand are quite economically viable, and the same is no doubt true for CDs.
importantly, there is still a big retail sector demanding product.

On backlist, or older product, again there are good reasons to retain physical, at least in certain circumstances. Culturally, physical media may be suffering a leak of sales into downloads and streaming, but there is still a great deal of demand. Paper books are still the vast bulk of the market, and “ Box Set “ culture is as strong with young buyers of series like The Wire as it is with FoR3 Forum Members. For publishers, with availability of short print or pressing runs, there should be no need for huge warehousing or production costs.
Physical media also give the producer a stronger chance of getting their product to a key market. I would suspect that getting income from a streaming, ( unless you have the marketing clout of DG or Sony) will be a matter of how much product you get listed. But if you know your market, especially if it is a little bit niche, the physical product gives you something to market and sell direct to your own market, a much stronger position to be in than relying on streaming income.

Good points TS. I find it unlikely that Physical Media will completely disappear. However, it won't be for a lack of effort by the Music Companies. it will be interesting to see how this all unfolds.

[Dave2002]

Off line listening is possible if you have a premium account (£10 per month if I remember correctly).

https://support.spotify.com/uk/learn-more/guides/#!/article/Listen-offline

"You can sync a maximum of 3,333 songs per device and stay offline for up to 30 days. Enjoy!"

I believe this is correct. It still doesn't give a permanent copy though, and would need to be reactivated for particular pieces which are required to be retained for long periods, which as mentioned earlier in the thread is a bit of a faff. At the current time taking long term copies from Spotify probably violates the T&Cs.

I have known people to take copies in real time via Minidisc. Don's comment about SoundLeech would refer to a similar approach, though not requiring an external device or media - other than that I couldn't possibly comment.

[kea]

Sorry. I'm revealing my ignorance here. I thought it was exactly the same, not analogous. Do not Qobuz, Spotify and Itunes all work in much the same way, allowing either streaming or downloading of their content?

They all work in slightly different ways. iTunes allows you to buy only—i.e. there's no way to hear the track in full without paying for it. This is the most industry-friendly model. Spotify allows you to stream only—in this case, each track is split up into lots of little pieces distributed among the various Spotify users and media servers, so when someone wants to play it, all the parts will be sent to them and put back together by the software, after which they will stay in the application's cache for a while in order to be distributed to other users (or you, if you request the track again, or 'download' it for 'offline listening'—i.e. simply keeping all the pieces of the file on your computer/mobile device until the software automatically scrubs them to make space for new ones). This is less industry-friendly as it's now possible to acquire the track without paying for it, but this has proven to be more trouble than most people are willing to take. Qobuz is hedging their bets and doing both, and not doing too well at it because it costs them a lot more and therefore they have to charge higher prices. However, Qobuz, unlike Spotify and iTunes, offers tracks in full CD quality (16-bit/44.1kHz), which would make them a competitive alternative if modern society weren't already so saturated with MP3s that most listeners' perception of audio quality has been significantly degraded.

[BBMmk2]

I very much still love the physical side of recordings, eg CDs, DVDs, Blu Rays, etc but downloads, do have their uses, not only for the expense!

[Dave2002]

There are also higher quality "master tape" downloads from companies such as Linn (http://www.linnrecords.com/). These could very well sound better than CDs, but may take a long while to download. Also the pricing is often higher than for plain CDs - certainly a lot higher than the bargains we are now able to pick up for between 50p to £3.

I'm not quite sure what the state of multi-channel is - but multi-channel downloads would take longer to download, particularly if only lossless compression is used on the data. They might also require special playback software - though SACD, DVD and Blu-Ray players do it (effectively) in hardware

It would appear that most of the public are indifferent to audio quality, but I do think that good surround sound or even simple 3 or 4 channel "stereo" would be a significant improvement over 2 channel stereo. Multi-channel might be harder for streaming - though I don't know of any multi-channel streaming service.