Remastering

[Beresford]

Incidentally, I know this sounds silly and I realise that it is probably a case of "rose tinted glasses" but I find the amateurish digital "remasterings" (cough) of the Elgar and Rachmaninov that I made from LP more pleasant to listen to than the CDs or high res downloads, even though they aren't as crystal clear as the high res. (Rega Planar 3, output to Meridian G92, 24/96 output (intended for Meridian active speakers) to external computer sound card, recorded on PC using ASIO/Sound Forge Pro, edited, denoised, declicked using Sound Forge Pro.)

It doesn't sound silly to me. I had a similar experience when I bought CD's of some of my favourite LP's (Debussy La Mer - Guilini, Corelli by La Petite Bande, and Messiaen's Et Expecto under Boulez), and I finished up much preferring the home digitised LP's (at 24/96) to the CD's, mostly for presence and liveliness rather than the timbres, which are bound to differ. The computerised versions were preferable even though there was some rumble from the old motor on my Linn LP12 - is there a way to remove that sort of rumble? They were even preferable to the ripped CD's played from the same computer.

[johnb]

The computerised versions were preferable even though there was some rumble from the old motor on my Linn LP12 - is there a way to remove that sort of rumble?

Yes, that can be done very easily using modern software, even with relatively inexpensive software. You select a passage of silence (say between tracks or at the lead in or lead out) and the software uses that to form a "noiseprint" which it then uses to reduce the noise throughout the file.

However, there is a trade off between, say, very aggressive noise reduction and some introduction of artefacts/some softening of transients/some reduction of high frequencies. I would guess that relatively inexpensive software often gives limited options so as to make things simpler for the user and the built in software settings are probably those most likely to give satisfactory results for most people.

More expensive software gives multiple controls over the process, e.g. in Sound Forge Pro 10 there are settings for Reduction Type/Reduce noise by/Noise bias/Attack speed/Release speed/Windowing FFT size, etc. Although there are helpfiles and explanations the unwitting "bull in a china shop" can create a far, far worse result than they would with the more simplified software. On the other hand, with patience and care those controls can be used to improve the results.

The same balance applies to crackle and click removal which can also be done with modern software.

[MickyD]

Thanks, ama. Sally and Colin always most helpful. You probably also remember them from an earlier shop, was it Dean Street, only a few yards from Oxford Street?

I think it was Direction, no? I used to spend many a happy lunch hour in there during the 1970s/80s.

[Roehre]

....
One great disappointment was the high res (24/96) remastering of Solti's Mahler 8 that was done a couple of years ago (downloaded from Linn). Some people might well say it sounds brilliant and has wonderful clarity but, to my aged ears, it sounds remarkably bright and very "thin" - very little weight and depth to the sound (certainly compared to modern recordings). I really can't believe that the original LPs sounded like that. (Come to think of it I still have that performance on LP, stored away somewhere - I will have to get out the Rega and compare them some day.)

My impression is that remasterings of, say, the 1960s analogue discs often (but not always) seem to have an over emphasis on the higher frequencies, must noticeable in the strings, which I find very tiring (even unpleasant). I once saw an Amazon review of a remastering of Frühbeck de Burgos's Carmina Burana which complained about the overly bright sound and claimed that a lot of the original remasterings for CD (across the board) were done in a great rush and used the master tapes that had been prepared to produce the stamping masters (for the vinyl LPs) rather than the original master tapes. His point was that the master tapes used for the stamping masters had a higher frequency emphasis applied to allow for the relaxation of the vinyl as it came out of the presses.
[....]
Going back to remasterings in general, what do the modern remasterings use as a source? One would think they went back to the original master tapes or the master tapes used to make the stamping masters (if indeed there is a difference) but it seems many master tapes from the 1960s are showing signs of deterioration and if that is the case then the only sources would be either "virgin" LPs (if available) or files produced for the original remasterings when the LPs were first transferred to CD....

Stamping masters are not a fairy tale I'm afraid.

The best example of using device this, as well as of dating when the companies (DGG one of the first in the early 1970s) started using it, is demonstrated in the DGG Kempff/Leitner/BPO Beethoven Pianoconcertos recordings.

Originally recorded 1962 (partly concurrently with Karajan's Beethoven cycle) the original 3 stereo LPs sound well, especially the warm deep colour of the bass should be mentioned.
The records in the release of these recordings in the 2nd volume of the 1969/1970 Beethoven Edition [as part of a set consisting of all the concertos] show the same characteristics.

In 1973 the piano concertos were again released - now as a 3LP-set. These were obviously re-mastered, i.e. other sources were used for the matrices for the pressings, those "stamping master tapes" with more emphasis on the higher frequencies.
These LPs lack the depth and the warmth of the original LPs, the sound is rather thin.
Though the performances were identical, this set was not received well: the recording was to blame.

[A similar difference can be heard when comparing the Schneiderhan/Jochum/BPO Beethoven VC in its original disguise and in its 1974 DGG-Resonance-reissue, getting the same type of FLAK.]

DGG used the device likely to 1976 or early 1977: in volume 2 of the 1977 DGG Beethoven Edition (again devoted to the concertos) we find the Kempff-recordings again, new matrices being used, and with the original sound characteristics.
[Rumours have it, that some engeneers or penny-pinchers thought that the production of Dolby-tape-cassettes as well as LP-matrices from the same master tape were a good idea.]

Whatever: tapes with enhanced higher frequencies were used in the 1970s, so it is very well possible that some people think it's a good idea to do something similar nowadays.

[clive heath]

re previous post:
The First Concerto from this series is on my site and I've just checked the LP cover which is numbered SLPM 138774 and has a miniscule 4/66 dating the printing of the sleeve. The 2nd and 4th Concerti are on SLPM 138775 ( undated sleeve) but I guess they will turn out to be the original release as mentioned above. I hope to process these later.

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/vinyl.php

[johnb]

Roehr, thank you for that enlightening explanation. I am amazed that this issue never seems to be mentioned anywhere, could it really be that nobody cares or that listeners are so used to the distorted frequency balance on remastered recordings that they think that is how music should sound?

Very curious.

[Dave2002]

re msg 19

I suspect that different companies used different strategies for getting their master recordings to LP. I thought that some left it to the cutting engineers, who would adjust parameters as the master disc was cut in order to minimise the effects of end of side distortion and other factors, but from this discussion it seems that some had specially made "master" tapes specifically for cutting. I'm not sure how many iterations were done for master discs, but Ben Bauer of CBS discovered that the effective vertical tracking angle for LPs was not a simple geometric function of the cutting head, and as a result afterwards some companies changed the way that they set up vertical tracking angle to compensate for the relaxation of the materials used. This would only have affected stereo recordings, but some early ones may have been made with tracking angles which did not match the replay tracking angle by a substantial margin.

If one were to make LPs nowadays it would be possible to use digital processing first, to analyse the recordings, and then optimise the cutting process, but 40-50 years ago it was almost certainly all analogue, with perhaps some recordings being made automatically, some semi-automatically, and maybe some done more or less manually. I write out of almost complete ignorance of this, but my guess is that there would have been different processes during different eras. I was amazed to read the accounts of some of the quality control features that EMI used in a link which was posted here not too long ago, so it seems plausible to me that some firms did use some methods which might seem strange nowadays. How thorough they were would also have depended on how important quality was to them, and whether it was commercially viable to put effort into quality factors.

[amateur51]

I think it was Direction, no? I used to spend many a happy lunch hour in there during the 1970s/80s.

Indeed it was Direction Dean Street, its USP being cheap imports and the first record shop offering free freshly-brewed coffee. We probably hovered over the same bins MickyD. I've just recalled buying a heavy multi-LP set of Mozart string quintets on Surpaphon there.

Prior to Direction Dean Street, Sally & Colin were to be found in Henry Stave in Great Marlborough Street (Colin sometimes lurked in the other HS shop in Dean Street next door to Pizza Express.

[Parry1912]

Indeed it was Direction Dean Street

I remember buying Karajan's Bruckner 8 (DG) on cassette there.

[Ferretfancy]

re msg 19

I suspect that different companies used different strategies for getting their master recordings to LP. I thought that some left it to the cutting engineers, who would adjust parameters as the master disc was cut in order to minimise the effects of end of side distortion and other factors, but from this discussion it seems that some had specially made "master" tapes specifically for cutting. I'm not sure how many iterations were done for master discs, but Ben Bauer of CBS discovered that the effective vertical tracking angle for LPs was not a simple geometric function of the cutting head, and as a result afterwards some companies changed the way that they set up vertical tracking angle to compensate for the relaxation of the materials used. This would only have affected stereo recordings, but some early ones may have been made with tracking angles which did not match the replay tracking angle by a substantial margin.

If one were to make LPs nowadays it would be possible to use digital processing first, to analyse the recordings, and then optimise the cutting process, but 40-50 years ago it was almost certainly all analogue, with perhaps some recordings being made automatically, some semi-automatically, and maybe some done more or less manually. I write out of almost complete ignorance of this, but my guess is that there would have been different processes during different eras. I was amazed to read the accounts of some of the quality control features that EMI used in a link which was posted here not too long ago, so it seems plausible to me that some firms did use some methods which might seem strange nowadays. How thorough they were would also have depended on how important quality was to them, and whether it was commercially viable to put effort into quality factors.

I suspect that we do not always know the tape sources on which much remastering are based. As an example, when Decca released their material on RCA in America the discs were cut in the US, using copy masters with a frequency boost at 7k. This was at the request of RCA. Apparently, American listeners preferred that sound, it was certainly true that American loudspeakers like Bose tended to sound dull to English ears, so maybe this was to compensate.

I remember comparing the famous Decca LP of Monteux conducting the Enigma Variations, which is still with us today on CD. The RCA pressing sounded tizzy by comparison with its later Decca issue.

Again, earlier stereo disc cutters had quite a hard time mastering anything above 12k, and there were often limitations in getting master tape material on disc. Engineers tried to ensure that bass drum thumps should not be placed extreme left or right, to avoid groove breakdown, and sometimes it was necessary to reduce stereo separation for long LP sides. In spite of those limitations, I still get great pleasure listening to vinyl, perhaps I'm lucky but I have very little trouble with clicks and scratches, in the end musical content trumps any minor shortcomings, whether digital or analogue.

[Roehre]

re previous post:
The First Concerto from this series is on my site and I've just checked the LP cover which is numbered SLPM 138774 and has a miniscule 4/66 dating the printing of the sleeve. The 2nd and 4th Concerti are on SLPM 138775 ( undated sleeve) but I guess they will turn out to be the original release as mentioned above. I hope to process these later.

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/vinyl.php

Those are the original stereo releases indeed.
Concerto 5 = 138 777
The 1973 4LP-set is 2721 066

[clive heath]

The 2nd and 4th Beethoven Piano Concertos ( Kempff, Leitner )referred to in the posts above have now been added to my website, taken from the original LPs and not the reissues as mentioned. I also have the 3rd by the same forces and its turn will come.

Incidentally, for those who want to do some prepping for next Saturday, there is a "Salome" from HvK, VPO and soloists on the same page ( and more incidentally, a Hvk Bruckner 8 with the Berliners but probably not the DG recording referred to above as it is on World Record Club (ST 772/3) recorded for EMI)

p.s. low level low frequency noise (virtually inaudible from speakers in the front room) is present if you listen on headphones, which I rarely do except to check the system is working!! I'll have a go at removing it. Well, I've tried, all I can say is: please don't listen on headphones!!

[frankwm]

The 2nd and 4th Beethoven Piano Concertos....taken from the original LPs

Depends what you think constitute 'the original LPs': logically it's the first release from the first stampers used: do you know how to identify that?
(the discs were first UK-issued 1962 - but various stampers date from late 1961).

NB: I don't see how you can call your transcriptions 'copyright' - especially as some are still under phonographic copyright: ie 'Salome'/Karajan - and the "Beethoven, Symphony No.7 and Overtures" Mehta/Philharmonia - which is a 'new one on me'...

[clive heath]

You're absolutely right . The statement originally applied to the 78 process before I decided to put some LPs up for a while and constantly replace them. I must get my designers to modify the statement or indeed remove it completely ( but I do pay the PRS annually which presumably gives me some cover, I think I'm allowed 5000 streams of copyrighted material annually which is way beyond the google analytics figures! ). I hope you like the Mehta, I do.

[MickyD]

Indeed it was Direction Dean Street, its USP being cheap imports and the first record shop offering free freshly-brewed coffee. We probably hovered over the same bins MickyD. I've just recalled buying a heavy multi-LP set of Mozart string quintets on Surpaphon there.

Prior to Direction Dean Street, Sally & Colin were to be found in Henry Stave in Great Marlborough Street (Colin sometimes lurked in the other HS shop in Dean Street next door to Pizza Express.

Sorry, I only just saw your reply am...yes, no doubt we did hover over the same bins! I remember when the very first instalment of the AAM Mozart symphony series came out and Sally being hugely enthusiastic over it, playing the set non-stop..she was right!