Remastering

[Dave2002]

A hint of a new topic appeared on another thread - http://www.for3.org/forums/showthrea...322#post417322

Perhaps it would be useful to have a thread (here!) to discuss new and old versions (even including LPs, 78s etc.) of some older recordings.

For example, I have an earlier EMI recording of Jochum's Bach B minor mass which has some horrible (audio) moments, yet it was acclaimed on LP. (This version, I think - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Mass-Mi...m+b+minor+mass )
There is a different recording by Jochum on Philips, which, IIRC sounds better, but it's not the same performance.

Many of the new issues claim to have been remastered in various ways, but it could be useul to know whether the remastering really delivers. There is also a possible issue for some multi-channel Issues, which may have been issued on SACD (some recordings of Berlioz requiem, and some 3 channel recordings), which could actually sound less good on CD where only a 2 channel mix would be possible.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Sometimes re=masterings can bring about an improvement. Some of other early DG digital recordings show a slight improvement in their 4D re-masterings, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

On the other hand, the Decca Solti Ring was a mixed blessing when it was "dehissed". I had acquired the full set when it was first issued on CD, but bought the re-re-mastered version which was fine apart from Das Rheingold, which lost much of the depth of sound along with the hiss. The original hiss was not obtrusive, and I wish Decca had not tried to remove it.

But amazing restorations have been made using CEDAR to bring old 78 recordings to us in sound once thought impossible.

[Stunsworth]

The recently remastered version of Karajan's 1960s Beethoven cycle is superb.

[HighlandDougie]

but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

A very good example of the above adage being the Oistrakh/Rostropovich/Cleveland/Szell Brahms Concerto recordings which were the subject of some discussion when re-mastered (24bit/96khz) and re-issued by EMI a couple of years ago on their sadly short-lived series of SACDs for the European (as opposed to Japanese) market. Someone (who may have been PG) commented that the original recording was pretty intractable and did no-one, least of all David Oistrakh, any favours. It sounds just as bad in its re-mastered form.

But, done with care, like the Rachmaninov PCs and the 60s Karajan Beethoven which Steve describes as, "superb" (a view with which I heartily agree) - to which I might add Britten's own recording of his War Requiem, Sawallisch's Schumann symphonies, Solti's Ring (in its recent 24/96 form), Böhm's VPO Bruckner 4th and Kleiber's Beethoven 5th and 7th - the results are well worth it. While the endless recycling of back catalogues does get a bit tedious, I for one am very happy to continue to fall for such recycling if it involves such manifest improvements in the quality of what I'm hearing.

[Dave2002]

A very good example of the above adage being the Oistrakh/Rostropovich/Cleveland/Szell Brahms Concerto recordings which were the subject of some discussion when re-mastered (24bit/96khz) and re-issued by EMI a couple of years ago on their sadly short-lived series of SACDs for the European (as opposed to Japanese) market. Someone (who may have been PG) commented that the original recording was pretty intractable and did no-one, least of all David Oistrakh, any favours. It sounds just as bad in its re-mastered form.

I can still see some of the EMI SACDs listed on Amazon - such as:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mendelssohn-...SACD+Klemperer

If you scroll down to the "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought" section you'll find a few more, possibly including:

Klemperer Mozart symphonies
Schuricht Bruckner symphonies
Elgar Cello Concerto
Dvorak, Grieg, Schumann Piano Concertos
Beethoven Triple Concerto
Debussy Piano Works
Liszt collection by Cziffra
Schubert Lieder

Whether they are worth having is a bit uncertain, firstly as maybe not everyone can hear the "improvements" (or maybe they are really not improvements), and secondly as the price differential between some of these and equivalent or similar CDs is now rather large.

I do have a few of them though.

[richardfinegold]

Remastering can be broken down a few ways. I think of it in the following ways.

1) Restoration of pre stereo era recordings. Particularly in the case of 78s, Digital Processing can do wonders.
2) Digitalization of LPG era Stereo recordings. The early digitalization so were a mixed bag. Sometimes the warmth of a good analog recording was lost, but other early digitalizations removed the sins of compression (and surface noise) of many stereo era recordings.
Later remastering so featured 20 bit or 24 bit remastering a, occasionally employing a DSD stage, and in general, these are highly successful, correcting many of the faults of early CDs.
3) shoehorning recordings into a technology that they were not intended for. Here I would include the SACDs and Blu Rays
Made from recordings such as the Kleiber Beethoven 5th, Du Pre Elgar, etc...I've enjoyed these rejiggerings, but they are more controversial.

[johnb]

Although I haven't bought any of the actual EMI SACDs I did buy a 24/88 download of the du Pre/Janet Baker/Barbirolli Elgar disc from a Japanese source (presumably based on the SACD remastering). On my system there was a definitely an increased clarity with the 24/88 download, almost as though a veil had been removed (but see below). The same with the 24/96 download of Previn's Rachmaninov Symphony No 2 from Qobuz.

One great disappointment was the high res (24/96) remastering of Solti's Mahler 8 that was done a couple of years ago (downloaded from Linn). Some people might well say it sounds brilliant and has wonderful clarity but, to my aged ears, it sounds remarkably bright and very "thin" - very little weight and depth to the sound (certainly compared to modern recordings). I really can't believe that the original LPs sounded like that. (Come to think of it I still have that performance on LP, stored away somewhere - I will have to get out the Rega and compare them some day.)

My impression is that remasterings of, say, the 1960s analogue discs often (but not always) seem to have an over emphasis on the higher frequencies, must noticeable in the strings, which I find very tiring (even unpleasant). I once saw an Amazon review of a remastering of Frühbeck de Burgos's Carmina Burana which complained about the overly bright sound and claimed that a lot of the original remasterings for CD (across the board) were done in a great rush and used the master tapes that had been prepared to produce the stamping masters (for the vinyl LPs) rather than the original master tapes. His point was that the master tapes used for the stamping masters had a higher frequency emphasis applied to allow for the relaxation of the vinyl as it came out of the presses.

I've no idea whether this is total baloney but it does have a certain logic and it does fit with my own impression, e.g. the Kertesz Dvorak Symphonies (and the Elgar Cello Concerto to an extent). Admittedly it might be that my audio system is badly matched but on the other hand I certainly don't hear the same tiring bright strings on good modern recordings - so perhaps it is just fairly revealing.

Going back to remasterings in general, what do the modern remasterings use as a source? One would think they went back to the original master tapes or the master tapes used to make the stamping masters (if indeed there is a difference) but it seems many master tapes from the 1960s are showing signs of deterioration and if that is the case then the only sources would be either "virgin" LPs (if available) or files produced for the original remasterings when the LPs were first transferred to CD.

Incidentally, I know this sounds silly and I realise that it is probably a case of "rose tinted glasses" but I find the amateurish digital "remasterings" (cough) of the Elgar and Rachmaninov that I made from LP more pleasant to listen to than the CDs or high res downloads, even though they aren't as crystal clear as the high res. (Rega Planar 3, output to Meridian G92, 24/96 output (intended for Meridian active speakers) to external computer sound card, recorded on PC using ASIO/Sound Forge Pro, edited, denoised, declicked using Sound Forge Pro.)

[pastoralguy]

A very good example of the above adage being the Oistrakh/Rostropovich/Cleveland/Szell Brahms Concerto recordings which were the subject of some discussion when re-mastered (24bit/96khz) and re-issued by EMI a couple of years ago on their sadly short-lived series of SACDs for the European (as opposed to Japanese) market. Someone (who may have been PG) commented that the original recording was pretty intractable and did no-one, least of all David Oistrakh, any favours. It sounds just as bad in its re-mastered form.

Yes, that was me, HD. Oddly, I listened to it the other day and it sounded VERY slightly better on my new Quad system but there's still that horrible distortion. I think the engineers must have turned the tape machines on then retired to the nearest bar...

[Radio64]

On a similar theme...How we made the compact disc.

[gradus]

Over-bright sound often characterises re-masterings I've bought with less mid and bass weight too when compared to the originals. Presumably this has something to do with the equipment on which the re-mastered recordings are played and the audio preferences of the engineer concerned, or are things entirely computerised? We used to know the names of the great recording producers/engineers but who re-masters their recordings?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Remastering can be broken down a few ways. I think of it in the following ways.

1) Restoration of pre stereo era recordings. Particularly in the case of 78s, Digital Processing can do wonders.
2) Digitalization of LPG era Stereo recordings. The early digitalization so were a mixed bag. Sometimes the warmth of a good analog recording was lost, but other early digitalizations removed the sins of compression (and surface noise) of many stereo era recordings.
Later remastering so featured 20 bit or 24 bit remastering a, occasionally employing a DSD stage, and in general, these are highly successful, correcting many of the faults of early CDs.
3) shoehorning recordings into a technology that they were not intended for. Here I would include the SACDs and Blu Rays
Made from recordings such as the Kleiber Beethoven 5th, Du Pre Elgar, etc...I've enjoyed these rejiggerings, but they are more controversial.

But surely "3" is a development (and improvement upon) "2"? Some of the criticisms of the digitisation of analogue recordings can be addressed by the higher resolution of Blu-ray and SACD.

[Stanley Stewart]

Perhaps my learning curve on remastering began when EMI issued the indispensable Record of Singing in several volumes on LP in the 70s, quickly followed by the advent of CD a few years later. Later transfers in 1999, a 10 CD set (Vol 3) on the Testament label, (1926-39), followed by Vol 5, 1953-2007, in 2009 - 'from the LP to the digital era'. Apart from being a treasure trove its also a timely reminder that decisions on performance or quality of transfer are finally a matter of subjectivity. Blessed memories, too, of Caruso & Co, Holborn, who also made them available at a generous discount!

[richardfinegold]

But surely "3" is a development (and improvement upon) "2"? Some of the criticisms of the digitisation of analogue recordings can be addressed by the higher resolution of Blu-ray and SACD.

Agreed. Although at first lush, the idea of re mastering a 50 year old recording for a newer technology such as Blu Ray seems to be a gimmick, the Sonic results usually provide their own justification .

[amateur51]

Perhaps my learning curve on remastering began when EMI issued the indispensable Record of Singing in several volumes on LP in the 70s, quickly followed by the advent of CD a few years later. Later transfers in 1999, a 10 CD set (Vol 3) on the Testament label, (1926-39), followed by Vol 5, 1953-2007, in 2009 - 'from the LP to the digital era'. Apart from being a treasure trove its also a timely reminder that decisions on performance or quality of transfer are finally a matter of subjectivity. Blessed memories, too, of Caruso & Co, Holborn, who also made them available at a generous discount!

Sadly long gone, Stanley. I don't know what Sally & Colin are up to these days.

[Stanley Stewart]

Thanks, ama. Sally and Colin always most helpful. You probably also remember them from an earlier shop, was it Dean Street, only a few yards from Oxford Street?