"Perhaps the greatest conductor of the 20th century"

[richardfinegold]

I'm stixking with Furtwangler. Despite the iffy sound on many recordings, I keep returning to that 107 CD box. Astounding.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm stixking with Furtwangler. Despite the iffy sound on many recordings, I keep returning to that 107 CD box. Astounding.

It is - and at 70p per CD, it's an astonishing bargain, too.


But you'd have to look for another conductor if you wanted, say, the Tchaikovsky Ballet Suites, the first three Symphonies or the Violin Concerto; the Sibelius or Mendelssohn Symphonies; Puccini; Schumann 2 & 3; La Mer or Pelleas et Melisande; any Mahler Symphonies; Falstaff; the Second Viennese School (and how I wish there were a recording of the Schönberg Variations!); Die Fledermaus; the entire London and Paris Symphonies; Mozart's Prague or Jupiter; Cosi fan Tutte; the first three Bruckner Symphonies; The Planets; Carmen; the Symphonie Fantastique; Prokofiev; Rachmaninoff; Eine Alpensinfonie ... I know I'm being unfair: after all, there isn't a conductor who did programme and record these works as well as all the ones in the Furtwangler box, is there?

But still, perhaps, the greatest in what he did perform and record. Perhaps.

[cloughie]

Maybe its easier to compare the contestants if we limit the competition to those whom boarders saw conduct, who then is/was the 'greatest'.
For my money, Monteux.

On that basis:
Sir John Barbirolli

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

On that basis:
Sir John Barbirolli

Now you're talking

I never had the privilege of seeing him, alas.

[cloughie]

ferney Karajan did cover the range - some however were one work wonders - I think at the request of the Maharaja of Mysore - he never revisited Balakirev, Britten or Vaughan Williams and we can only wonder what Elgar 1 &2, Rachmaninov Symphonies or Symphonic Dances might have sounded like under his baton. Shostakovich 5 would surely have suited and why no other Nielsen that the 4th, no Images or Nocturnes, no Mother Goose.
Bach: Brandenburgs (twice) Orch Suites, B minor Mass (twice), St Matt Passion. What was the extent of Maazels's, Boult's or Doarati's?
Handel: Concerti Grossi Op6. What was the extent of Maazel's or Doarati's?
Nielsen: Fourth Symphony. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel's or Doarati's?
Monteverdi: See earlier post. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
Britten: Frank Bridge Variations. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
RVW: Tallis Fantasia. What was the extent of Maazel or Dorati's?
Balakirev: First Symphony. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
Roussel: Fourth Symphony. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
Debussy: Prelude a l'Apres Midi d'un Faun, La Mer, Pelleas ey Mellisande. What is the extent of Boult, Maazerl or Dorati's?
Ravel: Bolero, Daphnis et Chloe Second Suite, La Valse, Rhapsodie Espagnol, Alborada del Gracioso, Le Tombeau de Couperin. What was the extent of Boult or Dorati's?
Shostakovich: Tenth Symphony.
Prokofiev: First and Fifth Symphonies.
Rachmaninoff: Second Piano Concerto
Where is Boult's or Dorati's "complete Daphnis?


I'll concede Copland. And raise you Liszt.

Bach: Brandenburgs (twice) Orch Suites, B minor Mass (twice), St Matt Passion. What was the extent of Maazels's, Boult's or Doarati's?
Maazel:Suites 1-4, Mass, Easter Oratorio Boult Brandenburg Concerti.
Handel: Concerti Grossi Op6. What was the extent of Maazel's or Doarati's?
Maazel Water Music Boult Messiah, Arias with Ferrier
Nielsen: Fourth Symphony. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel's or Doarati's?
Monteverdi: See earlier post. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
Britten: Frank Bridge Variations. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
Maazel YPG, Dorati YPG, Boult YPG, Sea Interludes (Surprisigly not more - didn't they get on?)
RVW: Tallis Fantasia. What was the extent of Maazel or Dorati's?
Balakirev: First Symphony. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
Roussel: Fourth Symphony. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
Debussy: Prelude a l'Apres Midi d'un Faun, La Mer, Pelleas ey Mellisande. What is the extent of Boult, Maazerl or Dorati's?
Maazel, Images - Iberia, Jeux, La Mer, Nocturnes
Ravel: Bolero, Daphnis et Chloe Second Suite, La Valse, Rhapsodie Espagnol, Alborada del Gracioso, Le Tombeau de Couperin. What was the extent of Boult or Dorati's?
Dorati - complete D&C, Boult D&C2
Shostakovich: Tenth Symphony.
Prokofiev: First and Fifth Symphonies.
Rachmaninoff: Second Piano Concerto
Where is Boult's or Dorati's "complete Daphnis?

Dorati's complete Daphnis with Minneapolis SO on Philips 6572011!, Boult just the 2nd suite

OK so where's Karajan's Kodaly, Orff, Haydn before Sym 83, Elgar, Milhaud, Messaien,


I'll concede Copland. And raise you Liszt - Boult, Les Preludes, Dorati quite a bit, Maazel none!

Where that leaves us I'm not quite sure - I actually like the recordings of all four conductors. Any conductor will have their preferences - and Karajan would no doubt have less opposition from his recording companies as to what he should do - I guess Dorati may have recorded more French music had not Paray also been contracted to Mercury in the 50s/Early 60s.

[Pulcinella]

Heavens Roehre, Stravinsky's Symphony in C doesn't sound Romanticised or lacking edge-definition here, but... I do have this incurable tendency to find what performers do more interesting than what composers tell them to do...

Jayne:

I think that this explains the different reactions we had to the Gatti performance of the Symphony in C that R3 broadcast in April.
I see now that you had mentioned the HvK recording early on in that thread.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Where that leaves us I'm not quite sure

Exactly - I don't know what criteria can be used to make any decision about "who was the greatest": your mentioning Barbirolli suggested to me that there is a valid case to be made for those conductors who built or rebuilt an orchestra in the way that Barbirolli did with the wartime Hallé - or what about Dudamel? The benefits to the members of the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of working in that ensemble can be regarded as of greater merit than a recording of Bruckner's Fifth (or whatever). But the "Mark Schemes" here are so different that I think we have to concede that the whole notion is just cheap journalism meant to provoke idle discussions such as the one we're having here - and which brings no honour to the "new-look" Gramophone.


Maazel conducted the Easter Oratorio??!! Blimey - thanks for that. And, whilst it might be a point in Karajan's favour had he never conducted any Orff, one has to admit:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Temporum-Fine-Orff/dp/B00000E4IG/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1405580774&sr=1-3&keywords=karajan%2C+orff

[cloughie]

Exactly - I don't know what criteria can be used to make any decision about "who was the greatest": your mentioning Barbirolli suggested to me that there is a valid case to be made for those conductors who built or rebuilt an orchestra in the way that Barbirolli did with the wartime Hallé - or what about Dudamel? The benefits to the members of the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of working in that ensemble can be regarded as of greater merit than a recording of Bruckner's Fifth (or whatever). But the "Mark Schemes" here are so different that I think we have to concede that the whole notion is just cheap journalism meant to provoke idle discussions such as the one we're having here - and which brings no honour to the "new-look" Gramophone.


Maazel conducted the Easter Oratorio??!! Blimey - thanks for that. And, whilst it might be a point in Karajan's favour had he never conducted any Orff, one has to admit:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Temporum-Fin...arajan%2C+orff

Looks like it's time to sign orff!

Enjoy your music ferney!

[Pabmusic]

I'm stixking with Furtwangler. Despite the iffy sound on many recordings, I keep returning to that 107 CD box. Astounding.

Here's a FLAC download of a concert in Turin on June 6, 1952. I don't know if it's appeared on CD, but maybe not:

http://panovnik.blogspot.com/2014/07/wilhelm-furtwangler-06061952-live.html

[Roehre]

....
Maazel conducted the Easter Oratorio??!! Blimey - thanks for that. ....

And it's a (big bandish) good one too, then on Philips
(but I am not unbiased, as it is the recording through which I learnt that work )

[kea]

Karajan had a sufficiently wide range that I suppose if you like him you can easily pick him as #1. Since I don't I have to divide the pie between Furtwrangler, Harnoncourt & Boulez.

I wonder who Gramophone would consider perhaps the greatest pianist of the 20th century.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I have to divide the pie between Furtwrangler, Harnoncourt & Boulez.

Didn't he conduct quite a lot of Levi Strauss?

[Roehre]

Didn't he conduct quite a lot of Levi Strauss?

[AjAjAjH]

On that basis:
Sir John Barbirolli

Amen to that. Saw him conduct just once and I've been attending classical concerts ever since.

On the basis of conductors I've seen: Mark Elder, Colin Davis, Stanislaw Skrowaczewski.

But I'm also interested in the great conductors of tomorrow. Three names to look our for: Andrew Gourlay, Rory McDonald and Jamie Phillips. Jamie Phillips conducted a Halle concert I attended last season and is certainly the finest talent I have seen at such an early age.

[waldo]

But the "Mark Schemes" here are so different that I think we have to concede that the whole notion is just cheap journalism meant to provoke idle discussions such as the one we're having here - and which brings no honour to the "new-look" Gramophone.

Well said. You also have to wonder if there isn't a conflict of interest here. The article on Karajan links straight to the Berlin Philharmonic Digital concert hall - clearly a promotional agreement of some kind. The Gramophone site does, in fact, advertise the concert hall from time to time. So another feature on Karajan (with free pass to the concert hall!) would be just what the doctor (or accountant) ordered.

This question - the question of conflict of interests - has come up on the GM site before and was met with a strongly worded rebuttal from one of the editors. No, the GM staff are completely independent and are always objective. If there was even a whiff of a whiff of a suspicion that they were swayed by commercial interests, the whole publication would go up in flames etc etc.

But while I am sure the individual reviews are always objective and honest (even when Simon Rattle gets another characteristically fawning review), I do sometimes wonder if the same applies to the so-called "news" and "features". Some months ago, there was a "news" story about a famous violinist visiting a school in England to give a masterclass. This was news, apparently. Eminent Musician Visits Posh School! Read all about it! Later than day, I happened to notice that the school itself was being advertised in a box at the top of the web page.........