"Perhaps the greatest conductor of the 20th century"

[Pabmusic]

...I would say that Dorati, Maazel and Boult had wider recorded repertoire

I can remember things like this being said when he was alive. Why has he suddenly become a conductor with such a great range?

[richardfinegold]

Well, if that's so what does it mean? That he had greater insight into to minds/spirits of composers than other conductors had? If so, what examples are there? And in what way are the insights greater?

As others have noted, it's a silly thing to attempt to define.
If one were going to pick a criteria, the ability to translate a musical vision to an Orchestra and then communicate that vision to an audience would seem to matter the most. I also would add furthering the repetoire by championing Unfamiliar Composers as an important criteria. By that standard HvK would come up short. Bernstein, Stowkowski, Mahler, Boult, Abbado,and many others did far more here.
If making records, building Orchestras, and self promoting is the only criteria to matter, as Gramophone's choice of HvK would seem to indicate, Szell, Furtwangler, and Toscanini were all at least as good as Herr Generalmusikdirector, IMO.
What about HIPP Practioners? For better or worse, HIPP is the most revolutionary change in the 20 th century in the way that music is performed. Harnoncourt, Norrington, and others could rate mentions.

[Zucchini]

For me, there is no such thing as "the best" in musical performance. The nearest that I can get to it the "The Most Preferred" and even that must be qualified by citing individual works.
HS

Perfectly put HS

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

OK every conductor decides his/her musical palate but I would say that Dorati, Maazel and Boult had wider recorded repertoire

Dorati and Boult's Verdi? Puccini? Die Fledermaus? Merry Widow? Webern? Schönberg? Wagner? Strauss operas? Bruckner? Debussy? Mahler? (Herbie didn't record any of the pre-No 4 Symphonies, by the way - I think you meant "from the Fourth onwards"" rather than "before").

Maazel's Bach? Handel? Schönberg? Nielsen? Berg? Webern? Monteverdi? Schubert? Mendelssohn? Schumann? Britten? Vaughan Williams? Balakirev? Roussel? Hindemith?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I can remember things like this being said when he was alive. Why has he suddenly become a conductor with such a great range?

Do you mean Herbie, Pabs? I don't think it is "sudden" - Karajan's repertoire throughout his career ranged from Monteverdi (of a sorts, but he was one of the very first conductors to take this Music into the mainstream repertory) to Penderecki. His recordings also reflect the range - Italian opera, comedy, French Music, Russian Music, the Second Viennese School, Scandanavian Music, Lollipops and Band Marching pieces - as well as the core Austro-German repertoire from Bach to the Second Viennese School.

[cloughie]

Dorati and Boult's Verdi? Puccini? Die Fledermaus? Merry Widow? Webern? Schönberg? Wagner? Strauss operas? Bruckner? Debussy? Mahler? (Herbie didn't record any of the pre-No 4 Symphonies, by the way - I think you meant "from the Fourth onwards"" rather than "before").

Maazel's Bach? Handel? Schönberg? Nielsen? Berg? Webern? Monteverdi? Schubert? Mendelssohn? Schumann? Britten? Vaughan Williams? Balakirev? Roussel? Hindemith?

I did mean "from the Fourth onwards"" rather than "before".

What was the extent of Karajan's Bach? Handel? Nielsen? Monteverdi? Britten? Vaughan Williams? Balakirev? Roussel? Debussy? or Ravel Shostakovich or Prokofiev? Where was his Rachmaninov? Where was his complete Daphnis? What about his Copland?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Bach: Brandenburgs (twice) Orch Suites, B minor Mass (twice), St Matt Passion. What was the extent of Maazels's, Boult's or Doarati's?
Handel: Concerti Grossi Op6. What was the extent of Maazel's or Doarati's?
Nielsen: Fourth Symphony. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel's or Doarati's?
Monteverdi: See earlier post. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
Britten: Frank Bridge Variations. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
RVW: Tallis Fantasia. What was the extent of Maazel or Dorati's?
Balakirev: First Symphony. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
Roussel: Fourth Symphony. What was the extent of Boult, Maazel or Dorati's?
Debussy: Prelude a l'Apres Midi d'un Faun, La Mer, Pelleas ey Mellisande. What is the extent of Boult, Maazerl or Dorati's?
Ravel: Bolero, Daphnis et Chloe Second Suite, La Valse, Rhapsodie Espagnol, Alborada del Gracioso, Le Tombeau de Couperin. What was the extent of Boult or Dorati's?
Shostakovich: Tenth Symphony.
Prokofiev: First and Fifth Symphonies.
Rachmaninoff: Second Piano Concerto
Where is Boult's or Dorati's "complete Daphnis?


I'll concede Copland. And raise you Liszt.

[jayne lee wilson]

Don't forget the Honegger 2/3, F-Geliebte... real blue-chip stuff.
HvK's Stravinsky - Symphony of Psalms/in C often overlooked too. Peach of a disc.

[gradus]

Maybe its easier to compare the contestants if we limit the competition to those whom boarders saw conduct, who then is/was the 'greatest'.
For my money, Monteux.

[Roehre]

...HvK's Stravinsky - Symphony of Psalms/in C often overlooked too. Peach of a disc.

Is this your vision of a performance of Stravinsky's Symphony in C following the composer's instructions?
Romanticised and loosing its edges ** , IMO slapdash, despite the beautiful recording.
That's the more remarkable as his Honegger 2 and 3 are top of the class performances.

**and Bruckner gets this treatment too, e.g. Symphony 9, 3rd mvt, bars 171-172 (2 bars before letter M)

[visualnickmos]

These sort of silly subjective accolades are one of the reasons I stopped buying Gramophone.

and possibly why Classic CD Magazine went down the pan completely some years ago.

Greatness is like beauty....

[jayne lee wilson]

Heavens Roehre, Stravinsky's Symphony in C doesn't sound Romanticised or lacking edge-definition here, but... I do have this incurable tendency to find what performers do more interesting than what composers tell them to do...

[Roehre]

Heavens Roehre, Stravinsky's Symphony in C doesn't sound Romanticised or lacking edge-definition here, but... I do have this incurable tendency to find what performers do more interesting than what composers tell them to do...

and that's exactly why Stravinsky didn't like HvK's performances....

[Petrushka]

Maybe its easier to compare the contestants if we limit the competition to those whom boarders saw conduct, who then is/was the 'greatest'.
For my money, Monteux.

By that criterion my answer would be...Karajan! OK, I only saw him once, in Bruckner 8 with the BPO at the RFH in 1979 but if I live to be 1000 I will never forget it. Easily the greatest concert hall experience of my life. Using the same criterion, Haitink and Tennstedt fight for second place.

The astounding breadth of Karajan's concert and recorded repertoire is in no doubt but the quality of it all is no less astounding. There are very few duds among the vast legacy and taking everything about him into account I feel it is entirely justified to talk of Karajan as the greatest conductor of the 20th century. No 'perhaps' about it in my view.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm stixking with Furtwangler. Despite the iffy sound on many recordings, I keep returning to that 107 CD box. Astounding.