"Perhaps the greatest conductor of the 20th century"

[mathias broucek]

It's Herbie, at least according to Gramo who've put out a "very special Digital Magazine" (their capitalisation) to commemorate 25 years since his passing.

I quite like his work but I had a strongly negative reaction to this for some reason. I guess this is partly because I struggle to put anyone ahead of an on-form Furtwangler and partly because I think integrity should be key to leadership (Erich Kleiber, for example).

Any thoughts on who else might deserve such a title?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Toscanini
Abbado
Barbirolli

But WF must be the favourite.

[Hornspieler]

It's Herbie, at least according to Gramo who've put out a "very special Digital Magazine" (their capitalisation) to commemorate 25 years since his passing.

I quite like his work but I had a strongly negative reaction to this for some reason. I guess this is partly because I struggle to put anyone ahead of an on-form Furtwangler and partly because I think integrity should be key to leadership (Erich Kleiber, for example).

Any thoughts on who else might deserve such a title?

........ and perhaps not.

An impossible comparison even of those who have left memorable recordings of their work over that one hundred year period.

Too many lists and not enough musical comment on these boards at the present time.

Perhaps the 2014 Proms will redress the balance.

For me, there is no such thing as "the best" in musical performance. The nearest that I can get to it the "The Most Preferred"
and even that must be qualified by citing individual works.

HS

[cloughie]

Toscanini
Abbado
Barbirolli

But WF must be the favourite.

Perhaps is the key word - what are the criteria for greatness? We all have our favourites. I'm sure the Uncle Bernie brigade will have their views!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

For me, there is no such thing as "the best" in musical performance. The nearest that I can get to it the "The Most Preferred"
and even that must be qualified by citing individual works.

There are many wonderful Musicians who have brought out the very best from the astonishing talents that make up an orchestra by communicating their insights from their readings of the scores thay play. In the type of repertoire most usually associated with "the Conductor", there is a four-way process, from the composer's text, through the conductor's imagination and the performers' realization and onto the receptive and critical (in the real sense of the word) listener.

To arrive at a "World's Greatest Ever"- type laurel wreath, we have to move away from individula performances of works and rely on a homogenous overview of a recorded legacy - and ignore the frequent gaffs and mundanities that appear even in the finest artists' recordings. With a work like the Bruckner Eighth Symphony, how can anyone state definitively that Furtwangler, Karajan, Horenstein, Abbado or Haitink is "the best"? We can each make individual choices about which most corresponds with how we wish the work to be performed - and, as far as I'm concerned, with those personalities in charge, my opinions change depending on which one I've most recently listened to. (And then there's an argument that says that all those performances based on Haas disqualify themselves automatically!)

And a lot of it has to be down to what's missing from the available catalogue - a couple of years ago, the BBCMusMag gave this honour to Carlos Kleiber. Understandable if you listen to his recording of Tristan and/or the Beethoven Seventh. But my instant reaction was "Where are his recordings of Bach/Handel/Haydn/Bruckner/Sibelius/Mahler/Debussy/Ravel/Mussorgsky/Stravinsky/Bartok/Schönberg/Webern/Daddy/Nielsen ...?" In this light, I suppose the palm should go to Karajan, having the most number of successful recordings of the widest range of Musics amongst his peers.

Perhaps.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Daddy?

[verismissimo]

Mahler?

[amateur51]

In this light, I suppose the palm should go to Karajan, having the most number of successful recordings of the widest range of Musics amongst his peers.

Perhaps.

If we include 'live' performances as well as recorded performances then Boult and Mackerras must give HvK a good run for his money ... and Rozhdestvensky

[Conchis]

I'm only a layperson where music is concerned but I would personally give the palm to either

Furtwangler
Walter, or
Klemperer

Hst, I'm currently listening to Italian conductors in non-Italian repertoire and I reckon the likes of Chailly and Abbado have their strong claims, too. The German/Austrian dominance of the classical recording industry in the 20th century probably gives an incomplete picture.

[MickyD]

These sort of silly subjective accolades are one of the reasons I stopped buying Gramophone.

[Pabmusic]

Well, if that's so what does it mean? That he had greater insight into to minds/spirits of composers than other conductors had? If so, what examples are there? And in what way are the insights greater?

[pastoralguy]

Herbert von Karajan was certainly the most successful conductor in terms of selling records. I watched the documentary entitled 'The Second Life' where it was claimed that, even today, he outsells all other conductors put together!

I suppose since 'Gramophone' is in the business of selling recorded music then, yes, he must be 'the greatest'.

[Ferretfancy]

Herbert von Karajan was certainly the most successful conductor in terms of selling records. I watched the documentary entitled 'The Second Life' where it was claimed that, even today, he outsells all other conductors put together!

I suppose since 'Gramophone' is in the business of selling recorded music then, yes, he must be 'the greatest'.

Surely,the business of the Gramophone is to criticise recorded music, giving credit where it is due. It should position itself at a discrete distance from industry pressures if it is to have any integrity at all. That's one reason why I hate the endless harping on awards ceremonies, best lists etc. etc.

[Roehre]

... That's one reason why I hate the endless harping on awards ceremonies, best lists etc. etc.

All those lists and ceremonies are humbug, at best

[cloughie]

And a lot of it has to be down to what's missing from the available catalogue - a couple of years ago, the BBCMusMag gave this honour to Carlos Kleiber. Understandable if you listen to his recording of Tristan and/or the Beethoven Seventh. But my instant reaction was "Where are his recordings of Bach/Handel/Haydn/Bruckner/Sibelius/Mahler/Debussy/Ravel/Mussorgsky/Stravinsky/Bartok/Schönberg/Webern/Daddy/Nielsen ...?" In this light, I suppose the palm should go to Karajan, having the most number of successful recordings of the widest range of Musics amongst his peers.

.

Perhaps.

I'm not sure whether I'd agree with the breadth of his range - other than Planets and a flirtation with Britten, he did very little British music - considering he was Chief conductor of a British orchestra for a while that was an omission. Other composers he only dipped into - even Mahler he didn't seem to recognise anything before the fourth - Stravinsky's rite but no Petrouchka or Firebird. OK every conductor decides his/her musical palate but I would say that Dorati, Maazel and Boult had wider recorded repertoire