CD-Rs sold as CDs

[Petrushka]

I've purchased several Presto CD's and they are absolutely fine. Ideal gap fillers, where you forgot to get them when they originally came out and they now only appear in a boxed set where you have nearly everything else. They're a bit pricey but on the plus side they sound fine and indistinguishable from the 'real thing'. Presto CD's include full notes and texts as per the original.

I recommend them unreservedly. I've no connection with them etc.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I've purchased several Presto CD's and they are absolutely fine. Ideal gap fillers, where you forgot to get them when they originally came out and they now only appear in a boxed set where you have nearly everything else. They're a bit pricey but on the plus side they sound fine and indistinguishable from the 'real thing'. Presto CD's include full notes and texts as per the original.

I recommend them unreservedly. I've no connection with them etc.

Presto have a strong reputation for trustworthiness - but, the CD-Rs onto which I burn my downloads: they don't have the permanence of "proper" CDs, I understand (I'm still able to play ones from five years ago, but I understood that there was/is a problem that CD-Rs will need replacing after a few years) - how do Presto or Nimbus CD-Rs fare in this respect? Are we supposed to rip them to computer to be able to make further copies in the future?

[Barbirollians]

Presto have a strong reputation for trustworthiness - but, the CD-Rs onto which I burn my downloads: they don't have the permanence of "proper" CDs, I understand (I'm still able to play ones from five years ago, but I understood that there was/is a problem that CD-Rs will need replacing after a few years) - how do Presto or Nimbus CD-Rs fare in this respect? Are we supposed to rip them to computer to be able to make further copies in the future?

My 2001 CD-R of the Wand Bruckner 9 at the Proms still plays fine

[Petrushka]

Presto have a strong reputation for trustworthiness - but, the CD-Rs onto which I burn my downloads: they don't have the permanence of "proper" CDs, I understand (I'm still able to play ones from five years ago, but I understood that there was/is a problem that CD-Rs will need replacing after a few years) - how do Presto or Nimbus CD-Rs fare in this respect? Are we supposed to rip them to computer to be able to make further copies in the future?

Is there any evidence for the frequently cited claim that CD-R's have a short shelf life? Or is it a rumour got up by the CD industry designed to make people think twice before using them?

[Bryn]

My 2001 CD-R of the Wand Bruckner 9 at the Proms still plays fine

My earliest CD-Rs, from 1998, all play without problem. However, I have all too many later, unbranded, CD-Rs which have either bronzed and failed or failed without bronzing. The still functioning early CD-Rs were of Sony or Ayo brand, and had a gold reflective layer. I also have many CD-Rs from the early 2000s which have the later aluminium reflective layer yet still play without a hitch.

[Dave2002]

Is there any evidence for the frequently cited claim that CD-R's have a short shelf life? Or is it a rumour got up by the CD industry designed to make people think twice before using them?

There is evidence that some CD-Rs (and probably CD-RWs) do fail with time. This is more likely (apparently) if they are exposed to light and heat. The experiences round here indicate that not all CD-Rs will necessarily fail. However, disc or other forms of memory are now cheap, so ripping and copying to other formats - hard drive, or perhaps even just another newer CD-R could be a sensible precaution. This could definitely pay off for rare recordings, or recordings which have gone out of print. Also some CDs which may be starting to exhibit problems may need to be read using a software tool such as EAC to get a good ripped copy.

Intriguing is the notion that some have reported that CD-Rs of (presumably) ripped CDs can actually sound better. I don't think this is guaranteed, and not all CD players will play CD-Rs well, though most modern ones should be OK.

What I don't know is what happens when a CD-R fails. Do such CD-Rs fail completely - perhaps not recognised as a disc by the player, or is the contents list corrupted, or do the discs play (sometimes) but perhaps with dropouts? If failing CD-Rs can be read at all is it possible to use software tools to recover most or even all of the contents, for example by changing the drive speed on a computer CD drive?

[Roehre]

...
What I don't know is what happens when a CD-R fails. Do such CD-Rs fail completely - perhaps not recognised as a disc by the player, or is the contents list corrupted, or do the discs play (sometimes) but perhaps with dropouts? ...

The Nimbus CD i mentioned earlier adds a crackling noise to the music at every cycle; the louder the music, the louder the noise.

[Dave2002]

The Nimbus CD i mentioned earlier adds a crackling noise to the music at every cycle; the louder the music, the louder the noise.

I just wonder if it's possible to fix that problem by copying the CD - others may know. I have had success with regular CDs - one in particular from a charity shop - which did not clear up immediately with vigourous cleaning and Brasso, but eventually I managed what sounds like a perfect rip. I'm not sure what the procedure should be for CD-Rs. A tool such as EAC might help, though I've not tried it for this particular problem.

Could be worth a try.

[Bryn]

As I understand it, the main problem is oxidisation of the reflective layer, though changes to the chemistry of the dye may also be a problem with some CD-Rs. Where the disc is a commercial release, I feel sure the manufacturer will be willing, perhaps even eager, to replace a faulty copy, even if the fault take some time to manifest itself.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/cd-rw.html has some interesting information on the subject.

Probably the most highly respected brand for longevity is Taiyo-Yuden, these days, IIRC, their optical disc manufacture is a joint venture with JVC. Not the cheapest by any means, but the best bet for archival purposes.

For general purpose longevity:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Taiyo-JVC-Silver-Stacking-100pcs/dp/B001ICWFU2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430907999&sr=8-1&keywords=jvc+cd-r

or for top of the range:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Audio-JVC-Advanced-Media-Taiyo/dp/B00BIKROS2

[Richard Barrett]

The Nimbus CD i mentioned earlier adds a crackling noise to the music at every cycle; the louder the music, the louder the noise.

I've found with this particular problem (which can also occur on ordinary CDs) that ripping it doesn't make any difference. In fact I recently purchased a FLAC download which had this problem, obviously having been ripped from a faulty CD without anyone checking it. I haven't tried EAC though.

[Gordon]

The nature of CD-R is such that it is impossible to be categorical about its performance and longevity, there are too many variables. There are several different chemical dyes involved [patents etc] which ordinary CD does not have, there being only the moulded pits [subject to moulding tool wear] and a reflective layer of aluminium or gold. In that respect there is more to go wrong with CD-R than CD and there is also the burning mechanism which should be able accurately to track the fixed spiral and then tuned to the dye used on the target disc - most burners should test the disc first to set up the burning parameters. It is then assumed that the dye properties are constant over the disc surface. BTW one can tell the difference between a CD and the CD-R variants just by looking at the colour of the read-out side. The different dyes give a distinctive tint to the reflected light.

The read out method in the player has a role to play too depending on its design [subject to patents and so manufacturer dependent] and how much lee-way there is in its sensitivity, especially as it ages. Reading a CD-R is more subject to defect than CD proper. A degraded disc and/or a tired laser will narrow the gap between the light levels at the detector of the 1s and 0s and so produce errors which the FEC system cannot deal with. It will also affect the clock extraction process that times the detected bits into the decoder chip set memory. One player may be OK but an older or well used one may not be. If excessive errors are produced and are not detected and remain unmuted by the chip set then nasty noises result. Chip sets will vary in how they deal with excess error production.

I'd agree with Bryn that a decent brand is one of the few ways in which one can defend one's investment in CD-R. Another is careful storage away from light [UV in particular] and excessive heat that might accelerate chemical decay. Frequent reburning [ie every few years] will help keep ahead of chemical decay. Who knows that even reading the disc with a laser doesn't degrade the dye each time it's played?

Why CD-R might "sound better" or why they should have less jitter is a mystery to me. If you select the verify option on the burner software you can find out if there are any errors embedded in the disc - but it takes extra time for this and so people don't use it. In the CD-ROM version of CD [some colour other than red or orange - Yellow IIRC?] there is extra error correction applied above and beyond what the Red/Orange books require. The FEC is exactly the same for CD and CD-R - otherwise the CD chip sets would not work on both [computer sets read anything]. The "audio" CD-R has a flag set in it that audio recorders read before they will burn whereas computer drives don't and will burn either.

When ripping discs the ripping speed will be important in keeping errors low. Ideally the reader should set the speed such that there are no uncorrectable errors. My ripping software does allow one to select the speed - I use the "auto" setting which seems to work well. It could be then that reading a faulty disc more slowly than normal [does EAC do that?] or having multiple read attempts will work. Multiple reads are possible when reading in non real time and is even possible in real time [as in shock resistant portable players] and might reduce the errors or even avoid them but if the disc is truly damaged then this won't work.

[Dave2002]

Probably the most highly respected brand for longevity is Taiyo-Yuden, these days, IIRC, their optical disc manufacture is a joint venture with JVC. Not the cheapest by any means, but the best bet for archival purposes.

For general purpose longevity:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Taiyo-JVC-Silver-Stacking-100pcs/dp/B001ICWFU2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430907999&sr=8-1&keywords=jvc+cd-r

or for top of the range:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Audio-JVC-Ad.../dp/B00BIKROS2

Re the Taiyo-JVC link - these are DVDs, not CDs. Not too long ago I did make the mistake of thinking everything is interchangeable these days - but not so. DVDs will still not play in many CD players, so for users who want CD-Rs to behave pretty much like CDs, then CD-R or CD-RW are the way to go. As mentioned in one of the other links, CD-RWs are generally a bad idea except for those who want to do a lot of editing/reuse, and they present a real "accident waiting to happen" for anyone who wants to save or archive precious recordings or other material.

There are also perhaps some computers which have mixed CD and DVD reader/writers, and that was probably where I slipped up, thinking we had a DVD writer in one machine, and having to use CDs to move data. It was old enough to only have a DVD reader, as well as a CD rewriter. Again, nowadays most computers which still have disc devices will do DVDs and CDs, though not all do Blu-Rays - e.g No Apple machines. Blu-Rays do have the potential for large archives - do Taiyo Uden/JVC do those as well?

The world has in any case moved on, and most users now use USB memory sticks or wireless or wired LANs for data transfers, not to mention Internet.

DVD-Rs have for me, in the past, been useful for storing large amounts of data, including various audio formats, and of course also for video material, as the cost per Gbyte was lower than for CD-Rs. Nowadays I mostly just use portable HDDs or sometimes large USB sticks, though the latter don't always give the same performance if actually used for real time use - i.e without copying at the destination.

Do you have a slightly cheaper recommendation for good quality CD-Rs as per your last link? Others note, however, that assuming the bulk pack is for 100 discs (it's not quite obvious) that the cost per CD-R is 59p, which is still not a lot to pay for (hopefully) ensuring good quality and longevity.

[Bryn]

Re the Taiyo-JVC link - these are DVDs, not CDs.

Not in the updated version you quote Dave. I changed the link around 2 hours before you posted.

The general purpose CD-Rs linked to work out at 25p each.

[Dave2002]

Not in the updated version you quote Dave. I changed the link around 2 hours before you posted.

The general purpose CD-Rs linked to work out at 25p each.

Mmmm.. Maybe I just caught the link when it was pointing at DVDs. The up market CD-Rs aren't really that expensive if one is trying to keep valuable content, even at the higher price. My target price for CD-Rs in the past - though not necessarily high grade ones - was about 10p - though some packs were so poor that none of the discs worked. I used to burn these for use in the car, and sometimes even used MP3, so that I could get about 5 hours on one CD for road listening. One good one was Berlioz Damnation of Faust from the Proms a few years ago (Levine?) - must see if it still works.

Richard B - msg 25 - I think it probably is worth trying EAC or some other CD recovery software to try to get some difficult to read CDs copied. I think even iTunes has some parameters which can be set to improved the chances of getting a good copy - though many may just not bother with setting the parameters.

PC users will probably find EAC is the best option, and most reliable, and athough I have now switched almost entirely to Apple Macs, I have used that tool with good results in the past.

Certainly for burning CDs or DVDs, which is not the same thing of course, it sometimes helps a lot to force slower write rates, and there may be ways of getting CD readers to operate slowly too.

In the "olden" days CD players always read pretty much in real time, but I hear that some more modern ones actually do burst reads at high speed and store the data to internal memory, so that the drive isn't always on. Perhaps this is particularly true for portable players, to conserve the battery life.

Others round here may have advice/experiences to relate re recovering good data from CDs which give poor readout, mentioning no specific names!

[Bryn]

EAC is my default ripper too. I have no blank Taiko-Yuden CD-Rs at the moment. Nor am I likely to buy any in the near future. When the local "Discount Warehouse" closed a couple of years ago, they were selling off Sony and Verbatim CD-Rs at £6.99 for a 100 pack. I am not likely to run short for some considerable time.