Storgards: Complete Sibelius Symphony Box Set

[richardfinegold]

I hadn't realised that Vänskä has re-recorded these symphonies with the Minnesota orchestra, and that's why that version is available as an SACD and in surround sound. I have the Lahti version which I downloaded - the performances are very good, though it seems that Kamu is now doing things all over again with the Lahti orchestra.

I find it a bit odd that Storgaard's version has been recorded in higher definition, and not available in surround, but that the disc version - normal CD is not the highest quality. Perhaps there's not a lot in this, but maybe there should be issues on Blu Ray, DVD, DVD-A or SACD. Having the highest quality versions only available via download just doesn't seem right to me.

Personally I still think there are merits in having some form of physical storage for music releases. If each symphony takes up a Gbyte or more, then downloads may occur additional costs for the data transfers, plus take time. If the recording companies don't want to put out disc formats, then surely they could provide a decent package with a USB memory. 8 or 16 Gbyte flash "drives" should be big enough to store hi-res lossless versions, and also be cheap enough, and they could provide a reasonable booklet to go with such to make a much better product.

Reportedly the Vanska/Minnesota set wasn't finished, as it fell victim to the Orchestra's labor troubles and the subsequent resignation of Vanska. I have their pairing of 2 and 5 and I was underwhelmed, preferring Vanska's Lahti version of those two.
My surround sound cycle is Abravanel/Utah on DVD Audio. If memory serves me, Dave you have a Cambridge Audio player that should be able to play DVD A. These discs can be had cheaply on the US Amazon site. The 6th is the highlight of this cycle but all the performances are competitive.

[EdgeleyRob]

Sibelius, one of your favourites?

Oh him !

[Dave2002]

Reportedly the Vanska/Minnesota set wasn't finished, as it fell victim to the Orchestra's labor troubles and the subsequent resignation of Vanska. I have their pairing of 2 and 5 and I was underwhelmed, preferring Vanska's Lahti version of those two.
My surround sound cycle is Abravanel/Utah on DVD Audio. If memory serves me, Dave you have a Cambridge Audio player that should be able to play DVD A. These discs can be had cheaply on the US Amazon site. The 6th is the highlight of this cycle but all the performances are competitive.

RIchard - does the surround sound work well for you? When were the recordings made? Surround sound in various forms has been around since the 1970s, so I guess that remastering some of the recordings for DVD-A or SACD if a recording/publishing company wanted to do that wouldn't be too difficult. Abbravanel passed away at the age of 90 in 1993, so perhaps the recordings were made even a decade or more before that.

One of my players is an Oppo which plays DVD-As and SACDs. Otherwise I have a Sony Blu-Ray - will that play Blu-Ray audio discs? I assume so, but perhaps it won't.

I've held off the Storgaard set for now - though I did have the feeling listening to the CD Review that perhaps I would succumb eventually. One thing in its favour was the vigour of the 3rd symphony - which until a few years ago I only liked "up to a point." Then I heard a live performance at the Proms which really moved along, and changed my opinion of the work rather a lot - and guess what - it was by Storgaards and the BBC Phil - http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive/s...ugust-09/14268 (I just checked ...)

Re the Abravanel recordings, there is a 3CD set available - here (and also in the US) but it's CD only -http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies/dp/B005IY3DDO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402268507&sr=8-1&keywords=abravanel+sibelius

There are DVD-Audio discs available - and in the US you might be able to get them really cheaply, though oddly enough shipped from somewhere near here. In the UK I suspect availability is variable, as is also the pricing, though currently the DVD-Audio of symphonies 1 and 4 is available - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonies-N...udio+Abravanel

While browsing I also noted the surround sound DVD-A version of Berlioz Requiem - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Requiem-DVD-...udio+Abravanel

[richardfinegold]

RIchard - does the surround sound work well for you? When were the recordings made? Surround sound in various forms has been around since the 1970s, so I guess that remastering some of the recordings for DVD-A or SACD if a recording/publishing company wanted to do that wouldn't be too difficult. Abbravanel passed away at the age of 90 in 1993, so perhaps the recordings were made even a decade or more before that.

One of my players is an Oppo which plays DVD-As and SACDs. Otherwise I have a Sony Blu-Ray - will that play Blu-Ray audio discs? I assume so, but perhaps it won't.

I've held off the Storgaard set for now - though I did have the feeling listening to the CD Review that perhaps I would succumb eventually. One thing in its favour was the vigour of the 3rd symphony - which until a few years ago I only liked "up to a point." Then I heard a live performance at the Proms which really moved along, and changed my opinion of the work rather a lot - and guess what - it was by Storgaards and the BBC Phil - http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/archive/s...ugust-09/14268 (I just checked ...)

Re the Abravanel recordings, there is a 3CD set available - here (and also in the US) but it's CD only -http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sibelius-Complete-Symphonies/dp/B005IY3DDO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402268507&sr=8-1&keywords=abravanel+sibelius

There are DVD-Audio discs available - and in the US you might be able to get them really cheaply, though oddly enough shipped from somewhere near here. In the UK I suspect availability is variable, as is also the pricing, though currently the DVD-Audio of symphonies 1 and 4 is available - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonies-N...udio+Abravanel

While browsing I also noted the surround sound DVD-A version of Berlioz Requiem - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Requiem-DVD-...udio+Abravanel

The surround sound on the Abravanel works just fine. I also have an Oppo 105 in my 2 channel system and I also listen to the Abravanel recordings on that. In 2 or multichannel the sonics are superb.
Older recordings are routinely remastered for high res formats including multichannel.examples are the first Karajan Berlin Beethoven Cycle, the Du Pre/Barbirolli Elgar Concerto, Richter's Dvorak Piano Concerto...
Blu Ray players play Blu Ray Audio Discs.

[Dave2002]

The surround sound on the Abravanel works just fine. I also have an Oppo 105 in my 2 channel system and I also listen to the Abravanel recordings on that. In 2 or multichannel the sonics are superb.
Older recordings are routinely remastered for high res formats including multichannel.examples are the first Karajan Berlin Beethoven Cycle, the Du Pre/Barbirolli Elgar Concerto, Richter's Dvorak Piano Concerto...
Blu Ray players play Blu Ray Audio Discs.

That's interesting about the remastering for multi channel of earlier recordings. I have suspected as much, but also wonder how effective it is. In the early days of stereo there were a number of attempts at "fake" stereo, usually based on splitting the frequencies in the recording. It was debatable whether that was a worthwhile exercise. More modern recordings will perhaps have more channels in the master material, so it may be more feasible to produce multi-channel surround sound recordings from recordings which were primarily intended for stereo. There were some genuine attempts at multi-channel surround sound in the 1970s, including at least one (by Bernstein?) which put the listener in the centre of the orchestra. Possibly the Abravanel Berlioz Requiem is a genuine surround sound recording - and maybe some of the others are too.

It's just possible that some recording engineers in the period 1970-1990ish thought that eventually surround sound would have its day, and made master recordings appropriately, but I doubt that many did. Recordings made using specialised microphones, such as the Soundfield microphones do produce masters which can be post processed with perhaps a greater chance of good results for surround sound than many multi tracked recordings.

I have a few surround sound recordings and some DVD-As. The Naxos version of Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony is quite good - but I've hardly listened to it in surround sound mode. I did intend to kit another room out with a surround sound system, but doing that on a permanent basis hasn't happened yet - perhaps for domestic reasons, and having temporary set-ups for experimentation takes a lot of time. I've not even heard any three channel recordings, though I have some. Even in the 1930s to the 1940s experiments suggested that 3 or 4 channels could give significantly better results than stereo - and that was just for a soundstage in front of the listener.

Maybe when other things get sorted I'll get round to trying out more permanent multi-channel systems, though the sizes of rooms in most UK houses, plus the overall sizes of houses probably tend to limit the use and development of multi-channel/surround by UK listeners.

I may look out for some of those Abravanel recordings on your recommendation.

[richardfinegold]

That's interesting about the remastering for multi channel of earlier recordings. I have suspected as much, but also wonder how effective it is. In the early days of stereo there were a number of attempts at "fake" stereo, usually based on splitting the frequencies in the recording. It was debatable whether that was a worthwhile exercise. More modern recordings will perhaps have more channels in the master material, so it may be more feasible to produce multi-channel surround sound recordings from recordings which were primarily intended for stereo. There were some genuine attempts at multi-channel surround sound in the 1970s, including at least one (by Bernstein?) which put the listener in the centre of the orchestra. Possibly the Abravanel Berlioz Requiem is a genuine surround sound recording - and maybe some of the others are too.

It's just possible that some recording engineers in the period 1970-1990ish thought that eventually surround sound would have its day, and made master recordings appropriately, but I doubt that many did. Recordings made using specialised microphones, such as the Soundfield microphones do produce masters which can be post processed with perhaps a greater chance of good results for surround sound than many multi tracked recordings.

I have a few surround sound recordings and some DVD-As. The Naxos version of Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony is quite good - but I've hardly listened to it in surround sound mode. I did intend to kit another room out with a surround sound system, but doing that on a permanent basis hasn't happened yet - perhaps for domestic reasons, and having temporary set-ups for experimentation takes a lot of time. I've not even heard any three channel recordings, though I have some. Even in the 1930s to the 1940s experiments suggested that 3 or 4 channels could give significantly better results than stereo - and that was just for a soundstage in front of the listener.

Maybe when other things get sorted I'll get round to trying out more permanent multi-channel systems, though the sizes of rooms in most UK houses, plus the overall sizes of houses probably tend to limit the use and development of multi-channel/surround by UK listeners.

I may look out for some of those Abravanel recordings on your recommendation.

We've wandered OT quite a bit.
When I had typed that the Abravanel cycle was my favorite surround sound Sibelius cycle, what I really meant was that it was my high resolution cycle (and it can be listened to in surround sound or two channel). My Sibelius complete cycles tend towards the older side--Barbirolli, the DG set (Karajan/Kamu), Davis/Boston (lps), Barbirolli, and Abravanel. I can't coment on how the DVD-A of Abravanel compares in sonics compared to a more recent cycle. The Abravanel does sound impressive, and the interpretations are good. The clarity of the sonics compensates for the fact that this was not a first tier Orchestra (but a very good second tier).
Surround sound, as employed by DVD-A, Blu Ray, and SACD, is a far cry from those 1970s Quadrophonic experiements. Most recordings will allocate a small amount of the signal to the surround channels and keep most of the action in the front 3 channels. This attempts to reproduce the effect in the concert hall of some sound reverberation coming from the back walls (or ceiling, if one has that set up) without obscuring the main source in the front channels.
I have many RCA Living Stereo discs that were reissued in SACD. They only play in 2 or 3 channel. Many were recorded in 3 channels. Frankly, I think the benefits of listening in 3 channels are marginal at best.
The best way to enjoy surround sound without having speakers dominate your household are to add rear speakers as in walls. These are relatively inexpensive, and since the rear channels are used for ambience primarily, they don't have to be any where near the quality of the fronts. Surround sound advocates makea big deal out of speaker matching (rears with fronts) but I have two surround systems in my house and after experimentation I don't think that matters. Some AV processors and rear speakers now also work on bluetooth, so one can avoid the wiring concerns. I haven't heard these, but again since the rears are not as important as the fronts, if the bluetooth is well done I think this would probably be acceptable.

[PJPJ]

Older recordings are routinely remastered for high res formats including multichannel.examples are the first Karajan Berlin Beethoven Cycle, the Du Pre/Barbirolli Elgar Concerto, Richter's Dvorak Piano Concerto...

The SACDs I have of Karajan's first stereo cycle are just that - stereo, they have not been reprocessed with pseudo-multichannel. Neither have any of the EMI SACDs. In fact, where multi-channel masters exist, these were not used to remaster for SACD as the Japanese market for multichannel is too small to warrant the extra expense. The Dvorak piano concerto with Richter was recorded in quadraphonic originally, as were Martinon's Debussy and Ravel, and Kempe's Strauss, and all stereo only on SACD (mostly sold only in Japan).

Universal's Blu-Ray Pure Audio release has been perverse - recordings previously on SACD with stereo and multichannel programmes have been reissued on the new format omitting the MC mix. Apparently, Universal has released a press statement promising to reissue those yet again next year.

SACDs or other mediums with artificial surround mixes are very rare beasts. There's little point in doing it as one's MC player of pre-amp can produce the same result on the fly.

Stereo-only BD Audio

As far as the Chandos Sibelius cycle release is concerned I am disappointed this isn't SACD (or Chandos's first BD Audio release).

[Nick Armstrong]

We've wandered OT quite a bit.

Meanwhile, back at the thread...

... the last movement of No 5 in the hands of the BBC Phil and Storgards is BLOODY AMAZING !!!!

[Alison]

Meanwhile, back at the thread...

... the last movement of No 5 in the hands of the BBC Phil and Storgards is BLOODY AMAZING !!!!

The game's up. Ordered.

Agree with PJPJ, really should be SACD.

[richardfinegold]

The SACDs I have of Karajan's first stereo cycle are just that - stereo, they have not been reprocessed with pseudo-multichannel. Neither have any of the EMI SACDs. In fact, where multi-channel masters exist, these were not used to remaster for SACD as the Japanese market for multichannel is too small to warrant the extra expense. The Dvorak piano concerto with Richter was recorded in quadraphonic originally, as were Martinon's Debussy and Ravel, and Kempe's Strauss, and all stereo only on SACD (mostly sold only in Japan).

Universal's Blu-Ray Pure Audio release has been perverse - recordings previously on SACD with stereo and multichannel programmes have been reissued on the new format omitting the MC mix. Apparently, Universal has released a press statement promising to reissue those yet again next year.

SACDs or other mediums with artificial surround mixes are very rare beasts. There's little point in doing it as one's MC player of pre-amp can produce the same result on the fly.

Stereo-only BD Audio

As far as the Chandos Sibelius cycle release is concerned I am disappointed this isn't SACD (or Chandos's first BD Audio release).

I agree with the most of the post, but would disagree with the statememntn one's MC player can create a satisfying surround mix. What these players tend to do is allocate the sound equally to all channels, instead of only sending a small amount of information, or special ambient cues to the rears. I hate listening to non surround mixes through surround processors and idsable the surround function whenever I am using those players for two channel only.
I also have to say that the EMI SACDs sound pretty impressive in psuedo multichannel.
Ultimately multichannel is more satisfying for movies or tv than for music. Some composers did write with spatial effects in mind and these works are enhanced in multichannel (Dave mentioned the Berlioz Requiem). Back OT, I don't think that Sibelius ever did this

[HighlandDougie]

I agree with the most of the post, but would disagree with the statememntn one's MC player can create a satisfying surround mix. What these players tend to do is allocate the sound equally to all channels, instead of only sending a small amount of information, or special ambient cues to the rears. ......Ultimately multichannel is more satisfying for movies or tv than for music.

The pre-amp/processor in my multichannel set-up (all Primare electronics) allows you to enter in speaker distances etc etc so that the sound is sent to each speaker in a way which approximates to how it should sound from one's seat. In other words, the sound is not allocated equally to all channels. I find the results pretty satisfying and, in going back to 2-channel, find that something seems missing from the soundstage. So I'm sorry but I find multichannel to be musically satisfying, especially if you have a top quality multi-channel SACD recording like Osmo Vänskä's Minnesota Sibelius 4th. For me, best recording of any Sibelius symphony by anyone, ever, which sounds at its very considerable best in multichannel mode. But to get back on topic ......

I have good quality copies of the original broadcasts from the Bridgewater Hall. Can anyone who has succumbed to the Chandos set (recorded in the BBC Media City studios) offer a view on whether the studio recordings are of sufficiently greater recording/artistic quality to justify buying the CDs or, more likely, downloading the 24/96 files?

[PJPJ]

I agree with the most of the post, but would disagree with the statememntn one's MC player can create a satisfying surround mix.

I didn't actually say that a satisfying surround mix could be created. What I said was a processor could do the same job.

[richardfinegold]

I had ordered the Vanska/Minnesota 1&4 after reading this thread and realizing that that coupling had been released. I am listening to 1 now, almost at the end.
Haven't heard 4 yet. My initial reaction is 1 is......What's the rush? It sounds like Vanska and the Orchestra were trying to lay down the tracks before the strike deadline. Or maybe Osmo had to catch the red eye back to Helsinki. The word that keeps coming to mind is "breathless". I haven't heard Vanska's earlier 1 with the Lahti Orchestra, but my query to those that are familiar with it is, Does it sound like all involved had ants in their pants?
I have 5, 6, 7 and Tapiola from the Lahti cycle and have played and enjoyed them frequently. The Minnesota disc of 2 & 5 was a mild dissapointment but this is in another league altogether. I hope that when they recorded 4 they all were drinking decaf.

[HighlandDougie]

Having a couple of hours spare in Central London on Friday morning (and in need of a bit of retail therapy), I thought that I'd buy this set. Foyles, the resurrected HMV in Oxford Street and Harold Moores had all sold out with the very charming young woman in the new Foyles telling me that their 11 copies had all gone quickly. Mildly frustrating at the time but also encouraging that there is still a healthy demand for good quality new releases