Recording Imprinting

[richardfinegold]

There are many pieces of music that I first discovered via recordings. I would then listen to that recording perhaps dozens of times before encountering another recording or a live performance of the work. In many cases I have never been able to love another performance or recording of the same work, and in other cases newer recordings or live performances will stimulate me to reevaluate a piece of music that I thought I "knew'' and become my new favorite. I often wonder what the relative contribution of bonding, or imprinting, with my first recording is upon feeling that the music is just so "right" that it becomes the standard against hich all other interpretations must be measured.
I was thinking of this after last night's concert. I first heard the Josef Suk/Karel Ancerl/Czech PO recording of the Dvorak Violin Concerto 35 years ago and didn't hear another for probably a decade. I've since heard it in concert a few times and acquired a few other recordings but never felt the Suk/Ancerl was equaled. Last night I heard Esa Pekka Salonen and Christian Tetzlaffin concert with the CSO and it was superb. However, I just finished listening to the Suk/Ancerl again and I feel again that the music comes as naturally for these players as breathing. The new Anne Sophie Mutter recording has gotten a lot of critical praise and I am listening to it on Spotify as I type this. It's wonderful, as one would expect from Musicians from this caliber, but yet... Again, I wonder if I heard first learned the piece through the Mutter recording, and only encountered Suk and Ancerl anfter many years, how I would feel.
By way of contrast, I first learned Beethoven's Op. 110 and 111 Piano Sonatas from a Gary Graffman recording. Again, I played that recording until the vinyl was peeling off, and have recently purchased it on CD. I still think it is a great recording--perhaps the finest thing Gary Graffman ever did--but have found many other favorites in the interim. Now why has the Graffman been somewhat less imprinted?
Perhaps in the case of the Dvorak it helps to have Czech performers who are so inside the idiom (not to mention the Composer's Great Grandson as the Soloist) that this becomes an insurmountable advantage, whereas Beethoven's music may be more "universal".

[Ariosto]

There are many pieces of music that I first discovered via recordings. I would then listen to that recording perhaps dozens of times before encountering another recording or a live performance of the work. In many cases I have never been able to love another performance or recording of the same work, and in other cases newer recordings or live performances will stimulate me to reevaluate a piece of music that I thought I "knew'' and become my new favorite. I often wonder what the relative contribution of bonding, or imprinting, with my first recording is upon feeling that the music is just so "right" that it becomes the standard against hich all other interpretations must be measured.
I was thinking of this after last night's concert. I first heard the Josef Suk/Karel Ancerl/Czech PO recording of the Dvorak Violin Concerto 35 years ago and didn't hear another for probably a decade. I've since heard it in concert a few times and acquired a few other recordings but never felt the Suk/Ancerl was equaled. Last night I heard Esa Pekka Salonen and Christian Tetzlaffin concert with the CSO and it was superb. However, I just finished listening to the Suk/Ancerl again and I feel again that the music comes as naturally for these players as breathing. The new Anne Sophie Mutter recording has gotten a lot of critical praise and I am listening to it on Spotify as I type this. It's wonderful, as one would expect from Musicians from this caliber, but yet... Again, I wonder if I heard first learned the piece through the Mutter recording, and only encountered Suk and Ancerl anfter many years, how I would feel.
By way of contrast, I first learned Beethoven's Op. 110 and 111 Piano Sonatas from a Gary Graffman recording. Again, I played that recording until the vinyl was peeling off, and have recently purchased it on CD. I still think it is a great recording--perhaps the finest thing Gary Graffman ever did--but have found many other favorites in the interim. Now why has the Graffman been somewhat less imprinted?
Perhaps in the case of the Dvorak it helps to have Czech performers who are so inside the idiom (not to mention the Composer's Great Grandson as the Soloist) that this becomes an insurmountable advantage, whereas Beethoven's music may be more "universal".

Josef Suk/Karel Ancerl/Czech PO recording of the Dvorak Violin Concerto would in my opinion be much better than Esa Pekka Salonen and Christian Tetzlaffin. Josef Suk/Karel Ancerl/Czech PO - in my opinion a much greater player, with a fine conductor. They are real musicians who I would expect to be very outstanding, particularly in that repertoire. Esa Pekka Salonen and Christian Tetzlaffin are not even on my radar for anything much. (IMV) But there again, I know nothing about music, really.

[mikealdren]

I totally agree, it's amazing how many pieces are imprinted in my memory, even after 50 years. Interestingly some of the works that disappointed me when I was young were victims of poor performances in my parents record collection.

It's interesting to revisit some though a few do disappoint on re-acquaintance. I completely agree about Suk's Dvorak. However what differentiates it from the Mutter version for me is the way he plays the music so naturally whereas I find her playing very mannered and too far from what is written on the page and I would worry about that being imprinted!

The Dvorak of course is still acknowledged as an exceptional performance. It's the less famous ones that I find interesting. I still find the slow movement of Beethoven 9 seems lacking compared with the performance Josef Krips and the LSO left in my mind and I haven't heard it for years!

Mike

[Ariosto]

I totally agree, it's amazing how many pieces are imprinted in my memory, even after 50 years. Interestingly some of the works that disappointed me when I was young were victims of poor performances in my parents record collection.

It's interesting to revisit some though a few do disappoint on re-acquaintance. I completely agree about Suk's Dvorak. However what differentiates it from the Mutter version for me is the way he plays the music so naturally whereas I find her playing very mannered and too far from what is written on the page and I would worry about that being imprinted!

The Dvorak of course is still acknowledged as an exceptional performance. It's the less famous ones that I find interesting. I still find the slow movement of Beethoven 9 seems lacking compared with the performance Josef Krips and the LSO left in my mind and I haven't heard it for years!

Mike

Yes, I do also find Mutter very mannered and this applies to most, if not all, of what she performs. I also feel that there is a glass wall between her and the music and another between her and the listener. Never liked her even at 16 years old in her Mozart recordings. For me she is the Ice Maiden.

[Petrushka]

I've been very lucky over the years with the first recordings of works I've purchased or had as presents in that many of them have been, often without my knowledge, very highly recommended versions. The sort of imprinting you mention is something I'm well aware of but it doesn't really stop me from acquiring many other versions and enjoying them! It's there in the background though and there are some obvious ones for me that stand out.

My very first Mahler symphony recording was Haitink's 1972 Concertgebouw and it still remains my favourite by miles even though I know full well that there are many more better recorded and equally valid interpretations out there. I played that LP to death and I am always aware or it when hearing another recording.

In the case of the Elgar 1, my first recording was the Solti and, in my view, it's never been surpassed.

Even with a very old, sonically compromised recording of a wonderful performance I still 'hear' it in my head when listening to a much better recording. This is the case with the Bruckner 4 and Bruckner 8. My very first Bruckner was Furtwangler's 1944 VPO set, a terrifying recording made at a terrible time but despite all the sonic limitations it still packs a mighty punch and it's that one I 'hear' in my head. Ditto the Furtwangler 1951 Bruckner 4.

Most of my first recordings are now on CD and I have them where they hold a very special place in my affections.

[mikealdren]

Most of my first recordings are now on CD and I have them where they hold a very special place in my affections.

I've also replaced LPs many times although there are still a few favourites that haven't reappeared, Tibor Varga playing the Nielsen Violin Concerto, Campoli's Bruch with Kisch (a real best seller in its time which I have on an MP3 download - not good enough!), Kremer's Ysaye solo sonatas, Ricci's amazing Sarasate with Brooks Smith and that Beethoven 9 which I have only seen in expensive sets - it must appear cheaply soon.....

Mike

[Petrushka]

I've also replaced LPs many times although there are still a few favourites that haven't reappeared, Tibor Varga playing the Nielsen Violin Concerto, Campoli's Bruch with Kisch (a real best seller in its time which I have on an MP3 download - not good enough!), Kremer's Ysaye solo sonatas, Ricci's amazing Sarasate with Brooks Smith and that Beethoven 9 which I have only seen in expensive sets - it must appear cheaply soon.....

Mike

No comfort, I'm sure, but I saw that LSO/Krips Beethoven set in the second hand department of Harold Moores last summer going for £15. It was a very big set and I didn't buy it because of the problems of storage. Perhaps I should have done.

My first Beethoven 9 was Konwitschny and the Leipzig Gewandhaus on an old Fontana LP coupled with the 6th and I was overjoyed when the whole set came out on CD a few years ago.

[Ariosto]

I've also replaced LPs many times although there are still a few favourites that haven't reappeared, Tibor Varga playing the Nielsen Violin Concerto, Campoli's Bruch with Kisch (a real best seller in its time which I have on an MP3 download - not good enough!), Kremer's Ysaye solo sonatas, Ricci's amazing Sarasate with Brooks Smith and that Beethoven 9 which I have only seen in expensive sets - it must appear cheaply soon.....

Mike

Well, these are of course some of the great players of the past. Varga, Kremer, Ricci, and Campoli.

I once was there in the band when Campoli did the Mendelssohn VC. (Sorry, forget I said that, it must have been in my imagination from a past life).

[richardfinegold]

I totally agree, it's amazing how many pieces are imprinted in my memory, even after 50 years. Interestingly some of the works that disappointed me when I was young were victims of poor performances in my parents record collection.

It's interesting to revisit some though a few do disappoint on re-acquaintance. I completely agree about Suk's Dvorak. However what differentiates it from the Mutter version for me is the way he plays the music so naturally whereas I find her playing very mannered and too far from what is written on the page and I would worry about that being imprinted!

The Dvorak of course is still acknowledged as an exceptional performance. It's the less famous ones that I find interesting. I still find the slow movement of Beethoven 9 seems lacking compared with the performance Josef Krips and the LSO left in my mind and I haven't heard it for years!

Mike

The Krips/LSO Beethoven Symphony set goes here for pennies. Speaking of imprinting, the first recordings that I owned of 2 and 4 were a lp from that set, and I still regard them highly. I bought the complete CD version of the set for $5, the mp 3 version for my phone for less than that, and recently a well preserved set of lps second hand for about $10 with many other sets to choose from in many shops.

[mikealdren]

I once was there in the band when Campoli did the Mendelssohn VC. (Sorry, forget I said that, it must have been in my imagination from a past life).

Me too - the Luton Symphony Orchestra, a poor amateur group. Campoli shambled on (towards the end of his career) with carpet slippers on his feet (gout?). Very sad. Even worse, I don't remember much about the performance.
Mike

[Ferretfancy]

Well, these are of course some of the great players of the past. Varga, Kremer, Ricci, and Campoli.

I once was there in the band when Campoli did the Mendelssohn VC. (Sorry, forget I said that, it must have been in my imagination from a past life).

Not to diverge too much, because this is a fascinating thread, but imprinting applies to other favourites as well. I find that very old films that I first saw when a child at the cinema with my parents, return with the same effect when they turn up on TV. Generally, the ones I remember being excited by at the time are still good when seen today.
Just glancing at a nearby shelf I find LPs which have been burned in, Annie Fisher's Beethoven 3 on Heliodor, Lionel Rogg's Bach, the above mentioned Tibor Varga, Leslie Jones and The Little Orchestra of London in Haydn ( He only recorded a few ) etc. etc.

[richardfinegold]

I've been very lucky over the years with the first recordings of works I've purchased or had as presents in that many of them have been, often without my knowledge, very highly recommended versions. The sort of imprinting you mention is something I'm well aware of but it doesn't really stop me from acquiring many other versions and enjoying them! It's there in the background though and there are some obvious ones for me that stand out.

My very first Mahler symphony recording was Haitink's 1972 Concertgebouw and it still remains my favourite by miles even though I know full well that there are many more better recorded and equally valid interpretations out there. I played that LP to death and I am always aware or it when hearing another recording.

In the case of the Elgar 1, my first recording was the Solti and, in my view, it's never been surpassed.

Even with a very old, sonically compromised recording of a wonderful performance I still 'hear' it in my head when listening to a much better recording. This is the case with the Bruckner 4 and Bruckner 8. My very first Bruckner was Furtwangler's 1944 VPO set, a terrifying recording made at a terrible time but despite all the sonic limitations it still packs a mighty punch and it's that one I 'hear' in my head. Ditto the Furtwangler 1951 Bruckner 4.

Most of my first recordings are now on CD and I have them where they hold a very special place in my affections.

My first Mahlher 1, as well as my first Mahler recording, was Horenstein, from a Nonesuch lp. It is still my favorite, although I was glad when Unicorn made a good CD transfer. Ancerl and the Czech PO were introduction to Mahler 9, and again, they may have been equalled, but not surpassed.
Leon Fleisher/George Szell imprinted me in the Brahms Piano Concertos, and although I own many valid alternatives, none will suplant them.

[richardfinegold]

Josef Suk/Karel Ancerl/Czech PO recording of the Dvorak Violin Concerto would in my opinion be much better than Esa Pekka Salonen and Christian Tetzlaffin. Josef Suk/Karel Ancerl/Czech PO - in my opinion a much greater player, with a fine conductor. They are real musicians who I would expect to be very outstanding, particularly in that repertoire. Esa Pekka Salonen and Christian Tetzlaffin are not even on my radar for anything much. (IMV) But there again, I know nothing about music, really.

You obviously know quite a bit about music. I assume that you are intentionally misspelling Tetzlaff?
I've heard Esa Pekka Salonen conduct several times, and in the right repetoire, he can really nail it. The Janacek Sinfonetta that concluded the concert was in his wheelhouse and left the audience hugely satisfied.

[Ariosto]

You obviously know quite a bit about music. I assume that you are intentionally misspelling Tetzlaff?
I've heard Esa Pekka Salonen conduct several times, and in the right repetoire, he can really nail it. The Janacek Sinfonetta that concluded the concert was in his wheelhouse and left the audience hugely satisfied.

I thought that spelling looked a bit strange! No, I just did a copy/paste so should have checked. I expect EPS can do some composers well. My friends in the Philharmonia thought (think) he's OK - but well, he's just another conductor but don't listen to me, i know nofink about music, as people on here will tell you!

[Ariosto]

Not to diverge too much, because this is a fascinating thread, but imprinting applies to other favourites as well. I find that very old films that I first saw when a child at the cinema with my parents, return with the same effect when they turn up on TV. Generally, the ones I remember being excited by at the time are still good when seen today.
Just glancing at a nearby shelf I find LPs which have been burned in, Annie Fisher's Beethoven 3 on Heliodor, Lionel Rogg's Bach, the above mentioned Tibor Varga, Leslie Jones and The Little Orchestra of London in Haydn ( He only recorded a few ) etc. etc.

Well, Ferret, I suppose that the Bergman films I saw at an impressionable age (about 15 or so) are still unequalled in my memory, but with muzak I'm probably a bit more critical and some performances that I first heard when young and which impressed me have lost their attraction (I won't say which as that might upset HS) - and yet I still hold for instance Fritz Kreisler's Beethoven and Brahms concertos amongst the best ever, even after not hearing them for several decades. (Well, at least two decades!)

On the other side of the coin there were people (performances) and composers I stupidly dismissed when young, and which I now hold dear. So we do get more discerning with age, even when, like me, one may become totally senile and doddery.