ICON box- Sir Malcolm Sargent - the great recordings

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

(if it wasn't for the now-obsolete CD-quality format)

[Hornspieler]

This material is all stereo-era, and, mostly, of interest as illustrations (if it wasn't for the now-obsolete CD-quality format) of some early Blumlein tapings....and having been demoted to bin-end budget labels decades back..such was the inherent lack of demand..

Sargent's recordings, justifiably, invariably received mediocre reviews at the time of release, with rather few exceptions; and you need to be indulgent/misty-eyed not to hear the lackadaisical orchestral playing by the BBC/LSO, and lack of 'interpretation/insight' in the Symphonies...the Sibelius 5 being spineless/a shambles from the start..(and the unissued on CD Rachmanininov 3/BBC shambolic near the end...)

A rather sweeping generalisation. Justified by whom?

Aside from the excellent Bliss Concerto (and possibly the Rubbra - which I don't recall listening-to) there isn't much that warrants more than a single hearing/compares to alternative recordings of the time (the 1965 'Elijah' bits though are nice)...and some is plain dreary, musically.

I remember the recording of Walton's 1st symphony with the Philharmonia in the 1960s. Superb playing by a superb orchestra before other conductors started to take an interest in the work. I have never heard a better interpretation of Walton's overtly biographical work.

The mono-era has been neglected - and the Dvorak concerto/Tortelier is excellent - as is the Tchaikovsky/Ricci..the Handel 'Israel in Egypt' too..but concerti/choral were his 'strengths'..and why EMI were right to employ him in that capacity (the splendid Miaskovsky/Prokofiev stereo's with Rostropovich could be mentioned - also FournierSchumann, etc) - the former plus the Tchaikovsky VC/unissued on CD Elgar 'Wand 2'/Tallis' I've made available) - and the Tchaikovsky LP contents should have been included - an excellent '1812'/'R&J' with the RPO for EMI's budget line -instead of some obvious 'flops'/run-throughs....

So maybe MS wasn't as lacking in ability as many people imply these days?

Hs.

[frankwm]

Given the meagre Symphony recordings, perhaps EMI had doubts whether he could visualise/communicate to the players such a 40 minute structure (even the shorter Dvorak Sym.Var would have most listeners falling-off-their-perch with boredom); and it's a mystery why he was entrusted to 3 Sibelius's at the time of the excellent Columbia/Philharmonia's (the BBC/1st is perfectly decent until the final movement).
But this rag-bag collection wouldn't appeal to me (at this stage, and not being daft-enough to buy CD's): only SACD 24/96 transfers of the BBC Holst/'Cello Concerti - as a discriminating collector - not some OCD hoarder...at a similar cost to the 'bulk-buy'.
Obviously, there was 'an historic' interest in recording the Walton 1 (and given his health) - but even Walton apparently preferred the Previn/LSO..

[Barbirollians]

I am baffled by the daft enough to buy CDs suggestion . Enjoy your SACDs and limited repertoire.

[frankwm]

I don't have SACD's - but buying CD-quality, still, in 2014 is akin to buying 4minute Edison Cylinders in the 1950's...and my recently doing transfers, even from the 'umble LP, the superiority (or quality loss of 16/44) is quite obvious..

There can be few, now, who rely on 1st-3rd generation CD players (expected/intended operating lifespan to 2000AD) - and the 'limited SACD repertoire' is more the intention of the Companies; nothing stopping them making SACD the default medium...
..and there are 'some' aware of the deficiencies of 16/44 playback (even in 1983..) and I'd certainly be a willing-buyer (despite having 10+K LP's) for (genuine) studio-quality.

[Ariosto]

I don't have SACD's - but buying CD-quality, still, in 2014 is akin to buying 4minute Edison Cylinders in the 1950's...and my recently doing transfers, even from the 'umble LP, the superiority (or quality loss of 16/44) is quite obvious..

There can be few, now, who rely on 1st-3rd generation CD players (expected/intended operating lifespan to 2000AD) - and the 'limited SACD repertoire' is more the intention of the Companies; nothing stopping them making SACD the default medium...
..and there are 'some' aware of the deficiencies of 16/44 playback (even in 1983..) and I'd certainly be a willing-buyer (despite having 10+K LP's) for (genuine) studio-quality.

So are you saying that 24 bit 44.1KHz or higher is now the new standard? I often record 24 bit with various sample rates, but I still find 16 bit OK, for say, speech, and even some music. And if someone wants a CD copy then it needs to be 16 bit 44.1 KHz unless they have a means of playing 24 bit files from the CD or DVD (i.e. ProTools, Reaper or some other editing program, which few people have).

As long as it is recorded and edited in 24 bit, with its extended headroom, a 16 bit transfer can still sound very good. (IMV)

[frankwm]

'Raised Expectations'..quality-instead-of(if necessary)-quantity.

Indeed; just as BBC Radio 3 is OK for speech - but hopeless for symphonic music; which hardly stops them churning-it-out 24/7 (almost)...and folks here listening to the dirge!

But 24/96 is where the quality from master-tapes would be appreciated: and creating your own 16/44 files (assuming they're not already encoded/CD playable on the SACD) is child's-play.

But I've done sufficient 24/96 transfers recently (also creating 16/44 files from the 'edited 24/96 master) to be able to immediately compare - and you can hear the 1950 Decca Sargent/Ricci Tchaikovsky VC in 24/96 (+ 16/44) from my Pristine Classics blog - where comments are that the sound (even from 'ancient' 1956 matrices) is 'stunning'..and you can see how extended the frequency-range is (waaaay beyond CD in terms of the violins harmonics)..

[Ariosto]

'Raised Expectations'..quality-instead-of(if necessary)-quantity.

Indeed; just as BBC Radio 3 is OK for speech - but hopeless for symphonic music; which hardly stops them churning-it-out 24/7 (almost)...and folks here listening to the dirge!

But 24/96 is where the quality from master-tapes would be appreciated: and creating your own 16/44 files (assuming they're not already encoded/CD playable on the SACD) is child's-play.

But I've done sufficient 24/96 transfers recently (also creating 16/44 files from the 'edited 24/96 master) to be able to immediately compare - and you can hear the 1950 Decca Sargent/Ricci Tchaikovsky VC in 24/96 (+ 16/44) from my Pristine Classics blog - where comments are that the sound (even from 'ancient' 1956 matrices) is 'stunning'..and you can see how extended the frequency-range is (waaaay beyond CD in terms of the violins harmonics)..

I was under the impression that the 1956 matrices would be under about 9-10KHz so CD at 16 bit, and 24 bit studio transfers and extended sample rates would not reproduce what is not on the original.

I think Radio 3 on FM can produce up to 15-16KHz under ideal conditions and if listened to on good speakers/headphones. However, you must be quite young if you can hear above 18-22KHz - I certainly can't hear above 12 KHz. The violin harmonics won't be above about 4 KHz (probably lower) but extended harmonics will be pretty high.

[frankwm]

You can download the 24/96 file and check for yourself (Audacity: Analyse: plot spectrum (65536 setting): select,eg, 9min02-9min04 on side one ...clear 'stepped' harmonics to 25,180Hz.

Even the 1929 Thibaud/Casals Brahms Double Concerto (on a linked blog of mine, from an original shellac set) has violin harmonics to 13kHz: commercial transfers would restrict this to about 6kHz).

It's not just the frequency-range - it's the improved resolution of 24/96...that's what I require (and so should others, by now).

[Ferretfancy]

I would be very interested to know who on these message boards actually saw Sir Malcolm conduct and more particularly, whether anyone apart from myself who actually played (not sang) under his baton.

My first experience was in 1951 to play in Ein Heldenleben. Caustic remarks about "stirring the pudding" and "...looks like an organ grinder's monkey" were much in evidence during rehearsal. It was obvious that he was unpopular with the players - and particularly Paul Beard, presumably because he was not Sir Adrian Boult.
As an eighteen year-old novice, I kept quiet and concentrated upon the demands of Richard Strauss's score.


In 1956, I played once more under MS in a broadcast performance of Elgar's 2nd symphony in the Royal Festival Hall.

Magnificent! The audience were ecstatic!

Possibly Mark Elder or Charles Makerras would have come close but certainly not Andrew Davis (IMV)

I still have my recording of Sibelius 1st Symphony which, for me, sets a benchmarch for that work.

Hs

Flash Harry? What about Jimmy Loughran when he took over the Scottish Orchestra?

"Flash Haggis" became his nickname.

All conductors acquire nicknames - some affectionate and others condemnatory.

I remember that when Dorati programmed Bartok frequently, he earned the nickname ITMA - 'it's that Mandarin again! "

I saw Sargent conduct on numerous occasions at the Proms when I was in my teens, and remember a German friend of mine being very impressed by a performance of the Eroica at the RAH. I heard the Elgar Violin Concerto for the first time at the RFH with Sargent conducting ( I think ) the LSO with Manoug Parikian as the soloist.

Incidentally, I'm very pleased to see that Sargent's EMI Planets is in the Icon box. It was issued as one of EMI's earliest stereo releases, and still conveys that sense of strangeness in Holst's music that some others have not always captured, and it still sounds very impressive. The Stokowski recording, made in a Hollywood sound stage, was issued in the same month on a Capitol LP, it isn't one of his best achievements.

[Barbirollians]

Sargent may not have been as good a conductor as Boult or Barbirolli but he seems to get a raw deal to me. I find it hard to imagine that such a sensitive accompanist in the concerto repertoire and such a great marshaller of forces in choral works - his Dream of Gerontius is the only one I have ever really enjoyed listening to and the HCS Messiah remains always and forever a great experience - could not handle a 40 minute symphony .

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I particularly like Sargent's Young Person's Guide & Enigma Variations. I have 3 of his Messiah recordings too.

[makropulos]

This material is all stereo-era, and, mostly, of interest as illustrations (if it wasn't for the now-obsolete CD-quality format) of some early Blumlein tapings....and having been demoted to bin-end budget labels decades back..such was the inherent lack of demand...

The Gerontius, Belshazzar's Feast, Messiah, Elijah, Ibert, Bax, and some of the VW are all mono, not stereo.

[frankwm]

The list was too tedious..and was anyway under the impression 'Belshazzar' (ALP/T mono) later had a stereo CD release (as with the RVW material (ALP/CLP/MFP) - these I have - and the 'Elijah' I stated was 1965 (have on CFP)..but knew the Gerontius was mono (have on 2x 33CX - as did half the country; assuming this isn't the 78 version: have on LP's..) - but it was months away from stereo - and he recorded Messiah in stereo (thankfully I don't have any version of his).

Presumably the job-lot is a must-buy for the Ibert (which, BTW, isn't on the list..)??

Aside from that/Bax/Greig/German, couple of odds/sods, have all the rest...and you are welcome to most of them!

[richardfinegold]

Sargent may not have been as good a conductor as Boult or Barbirolli but he seems to get a raw deal to me. I find it hard to imagine that such a sensitive accompanist in the concerto repertoire and such a great marshaller of forces in choral works - his Dream of Gerontius is the only one I have ever really enjoyed listening to and the HCS Messiah remains always and forever a great experience - could not handle a 40 minute symphony .

Perhaps influenced by the "Flash Harry" nickname, and the fact that my first exposure to him was Gilbert and Sullivan recordings, I didn't take him very seriously at first. What opened my eyes (ears?) was the Beethoven Piano Concerto recordings. A very versatile musician.