Missing period instrument Haydn symphonies.

[Tony Halstead]

Yes, five boxes were still to be released in the complete edition of the AAM set and we fans were left high and dry, having bought all the previous issues.

Getting back to the TV peformances of 79 and 81...if Tony played in the band, could he tell us if they were indeed recorded by Decca, even though they were never released? I would so love to have them...no.79 is just superb.

I was indeed playing in the AAM in those 2 YouTube clips of Haydn 79 and 81.
Although I am still trying to locate ( having moved house recently) my diaries for 1999-2001 ( approx when those performances took place) I am quite certain that the symphonies were not recorded by Decca.
Although the 'sound' on the YouTube clips is absolutely ghastly - huge evidence of 'limiters' and 'boosters' I am very much hoping that the sound 'at source' was a lot better than that, ( recorded by German or Austrian radio?) and in fact I am currently trying to instigate negotiations with a major record company to track down the master tapes and release them on CD as a memorial to Chris Hogwood, if at all possible, as it does seem that the actual performances are very fine.

[Tony Halstead]

Symphony 79 has always been a special favourite of mine, ever since (Sir) Simon Rattle programmed it with the English Chamber Orchestra in about 1974-1975 ( when he was about 19 before becoming a Knight of the Realm).
Since then I have had the pleasure of conducting it many times, e.g. with the Uppsala Chamber Orchestra, the Stavanger Symphony Orchestra, the Queensland Philharmonic Orchestra, and on period instruments, with The Hanover Band and the English Haydn Festival Orchestra. A lovely, warm-hearted work despite the words of a few 'in print' detractors!

[JFLL]

Nos. 76 and 77 [in the Hogwood/AAM series] were certainly recorded and though they never got issued by Decca, they did make a brief appearance on a BBC music magazine disc, which I guard with my life - definitely a collector's item.

Me too, Micky - no charity shop for them. I was rather disappointed that the recent reissue of the Hogwood/AAM series didn't have the detailed notes by James Webster which were often singled out for praise by reviewers of the original sets. Instead there's a rather wordy and badly-translated essay 'Christopher Hogwood and Haydn's Symphonies', a poor substitute for notes on each symphony. It also means that what I assume to be the careful chronological grouping of the symphonies, which seems to be retained in the reissue, isn't given a declared rationale. Lack of adequate documentation unfortunately seems to be the way of these retrospective sets these days.

I've rather a soft spot for the symphonies between the so-called Sturm und Drang symphonies and the Paris symphonies, roughly nos. 53-81. They sometimes seem to be regarded as a falling-off from the drama and undoubted originality of the S&Ds. I've a personal feeling that the S&D aspect of middle-period Haydn can be over-emphasised in 'this least confessional of all composers' (as Richard Wigmore, I think, called him). I'm relieved to see that a pro like Tony is also fond of no. 79.

[MickyD]

Thanks for these highly encouraging posts....Tony, that is a brilliant idea of yours, to track down those masters. I would dearly love to have them on CD and what a lovely tribute it would be to Christopher Hogwood. Yes, the sound on YouTube is atrocious and must be better from the original source, surely.

I'm not at all surprised, JFLL, that all those Webster notes disappeared...that's so often the way of box sets, sadly. And yes, the original sets had the symphonies grouped in distinct periods, which was of course explained fully in the notes. It was another reason why the series was so very desirable and owning it now is a bit like looking at the Venus de Milo - admiring the beauty but not being able to help wondering what it would have been like complete!

As for no.79, I can understand why Tony is so enthusiastic...listening to it last night genuinely made me chuckle. I find that out of all composers, only Haydn has the ability to do that.

[Bryn]

I was indeed playing in the AAM in those 2 YouTube clips of Haydn 79 and 81.
Although I am still trying to locate ( having moved house recently) my diaries for 1999-2001 ( approx when those performances took place) I am quite certain that the symphonies were not recorded by Decca.
Although the 'sound' on the YouTube clips is absolutely ghastly - huge evidence of 'limiters' and 'boosters' I am very much hoping that the sound 'at source' was a lot better than that, ( recorded by German or Austrian radio?) and in fact I am currently trying to instigate negotiations with a major record company to track down the master tapes and release them on CD as a memorial to Chris Hogwood, if at all possible, as it does seem that the actual performances are very fine.

The very best of luck with that, Tony. Not wishing to put too much of a damper on your hopes of a positive outcome, I would just suggest that as the recordings were made for television broadcasts the dynamic compression, etc., may have come quite early in the recording chain. I'm thinking in terms of the dynamic limiting applied to the Prom performances of Brian's Gothic (not even the excuse of a television broadcast) and of Janacek's Glagolitic Mass in 1911. Hyperion did what they could to open out the dynamics of the Gothic, but the limiter had done its dirty work. Crossed fingers w.r.t. the Haydn however.

[Lion-of-Vienna]

The reason why symphonies 79 and 81 have never received HIPP recordings is part of a larger question of why the symphonies of 1775-1784 are less well known in general than the rest of the Haydn symphonies. These are Nos. 61 to 81 plus 53 (but not 65 or 72 which are earlier works).

Even Robbins Landon was a bit sniffy about them “…not Haydn’s best symphonic works…….written for popular consumption, for easy comprehensibility by the masses.” It is true that they do not have the passion, colourful scoring and experimental quality of the preceding Sturm und Drang symphonies or the sheer professional high quality of the Paris, Tost, d’Ogny and London symphonies (82-104) that followed. In this period of his career the symphony was relatively low down Haydn’s list of priorities with so much work needed in the opera house at Esterhaza. Nevertheless there are some gems amongst them. Haydn had hit upon a style that was successful and enabled him to produce enjoyable symphonies with a minimum of effort. There is no harm in that.

Another factor that mitigates against these works is the relative lack of nicknames for the symphonies. Certainly a nickname is no guarantee of quality but it does draw attention to a piece at the expense of its unnamed neighbours. Haydn said as much when writing to his publisher, Artaria, regarding the piano arrangement of Symphony No.69, named for the Austrian Field Marshall Laudon. He was unhappy with the keyboard arrangement of the final movement and advised Artaria not to publish it saying “the word “Laudon” will do more towards selling the work than any ten finales”.

I am always in favour of a bit of positive discrimination and I would recommend anyone with a set of Haydn symphonies, HIPP or not, to spend some of their listening time during the Christmas holiday going through some or all of the symphonies of 1775-84. It will be time well spent.

[MickyD]

One of my favourites is no.68...the strange adagio with all those surprises, and the presto finale which for me sums up all the wit of Haydn.

Hogwood and the AAM perform it superbly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgXGrHuuMm0

[Lion-of-Vienna]

One of my favourites is no.68...the strange adagio with all those surprises, and the presto finale which for me sums up all the wit of Haydn.

Agreed! I picked up a box of cassettes by L'Estro Armonico under Derek Solomons in a charity shop and they make that finale go with a tremendous amount of energy. That is another HIPP set that regrettably stalled into the second half of the task.

[JFLL]

One of my favourites is no.68...the strange adagio with all those surprises, and the presto finale which for me sums up all the wit of Haydn.

Hogwood and the AAM perform it superbly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgXGrHuuMm0

As it happens I was listening to no. 68 with Hogwood only yesterday. If, as Lion-of-Vienna rightly says in his interesting post, the lack of nicknames may hinder the popularity of these symphonies, this one ought surely to be called 'The Clock No. 1' because of that ticking theme (with typically Haydnesque gruff forte pointing) in the slow movement – all 14 minutes of it!

There's a paradox in what Lion quotes from Robbins Landon; 'written for popular consumption, for easy comprehensibility by the masses'. If that's the case, why aren't they more popular today? I think I agree with what R. Wigmore, in the Faber Guide to Haydn, says apropos of the symphonies of the mid- and late-1770s: 'their aesthetic of "entertainment" is just as valid as the more forceful or impassioned idiom of the symphonies of a few years earlier'. (Haydn's own distinction may have been between 'learned' (gelehrte) and 'popular' features, which he was anxious to balance. There's the interesting case of him deleting a passage in the slow movement of no. 42 (a 'Sturm und Drang' symphony) because it was 'for far too learned ears'.)

[LeMartinPecheur]

Does anyone know a 1976 book on all the Haydn symphs by Antony Hodgson? As well as giving useful analytical notes on each symphony it also lists then-current recordings (European and US) that the author recommends. He is definitely heading towards HIPP with scholarly attention to proper instrumentation, e.g. horn-parts at correct pitch.

For the record as it were, the versions of 79 and 81 listed are as follows:
79
Haydn Foundation/ Almeida (Philips)
Phil Hungarica / Dorati (Decca)
Vienna CO/ Maerzendorfer (US - Musical Heritage)

81
Haydn-Foundation/ Almeida (Philips)
Esterhazy Orch/ Blum (US Vanguard)
Bath Festival Ch Orch/ Dorati (US Mercury) (The Decca Dorati gets a thumbs-down as less recommendable than this one.)

Almeida gets Hodgson's vote in 81 but he adds no comments to his listing for 79.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Nos. 76 and 77 were certainly recorded and though they never got issued by Decca, they did make a brief appearance on a BBC music magazine disc, which I guard with my life - definitely a collector's item.

And, in a rare moment of calm in a fraught day, picked up for £1.50 from a charity shop this afternoon by myself.

[Lion-of-Vienna]

There's a paradox in what Lion quotes from Robbins Landon; 'written for popular consumption, for easy comprehensibility by the masses'. If that's the case, why aren't they more popular today?

The quote was taken from the BBC Music Guide to the Haydn Symphonies. Robbins Landon is saying that the symphonies of this period are not serious enough (for him) and hence not worthy of too much consideration in comparison with works from other periods of the composer's career. Reading the chapter about this period again RL seems to distinguish between those works written for use solely at Esterhaza (eg.61, 64 and 67) that he approves of and those works written for export (e.g. 69) where he seems to suggest that Haydn has let his artistic standards slip. However, times and tastes change, which is curiously the subtitle of Haydn's Symphony No.64 "Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis" (Times change and we change with them). None of this should prevent us from enjoying what I think is an attractive group of symphonies.

Regarding the book by Antony Hodgson mentioned by LeMartinPecheur, I remember borrowing this several times from the local library and finding it gave a useful alternative view to that of Robbins Landon. There are a couple of low price copies available on Amazon at the moment.

Off topic - Antony Hodgson has also written a very interesting book entitled Scandinavian Music - Finland and Sweden. This discusses the works of a large number of lesser known composers from these two countries. A useful companion for anyone interested in the music of the north.

[MickyD]

And, in a rare moment of calm in a fraught day, picked up for £1.50 from a charity shop this afternoon by myself.

What a happy coincidence, ferney, and a real bargain! I'm sure you'll get much pleasure from that disc.

[JFLL]

And, in a rare moment of calm in a fraught day, picked up for £1.50 from a charity shop this afternoon by myself.

You lucky devil -- talk about serendipity!

[Flosshilde]

And, in a rare moment of calm in a fraught day, picked up for £1.50 from a charity shop this afternoon by myself.

Oooh - what a wonderful stroke of luck.


Don't suppose you'd care to share it around & make a copy or two (or three, or four, or .......... )