The Classic FM-isation of R3 is almost complete

[french frank]

You do realise there are CDs!

What are CDs?

What I find even more deplorable than your ignorance is that you do not act as an objective moderator but seek to steer the discussion in the direction you want it to go. The suspicion among many of us is that you are using this forum as a platform to follow a narrow agenda. That is amply demonstrated here.

This forum is provided and run by Friends of Radio 3: we have an agenda which is clear from our adjoining website. But the forum is free for anyone who cares to participate for discussion.

I note too your threat to have me excluded.

Pure invention. You asked me which of the composers you named I would 'exclude' (I assumed in the context you meant from Radio 3). I said there was one, whom I did not name and as I said that the exclusion would be unreasonable, I think you could take it that it was said slightly tongue in cheek. I don't recall mentioning excluding anyone from the forum.

I'm aware that people at the BBC follow the discussions on this forum and so the only consolation I have is that threads of this kind only serve to further undermine any influence you might have on R3 policy.

I'm sure sensible people will take the justifiable message from this thread.

[soileduk]

白目

[vinteuil]

白目

... if we are talking "white eyes" - very naughty.

[soileduk]

[David-G]

Didn't I read that whole Proms are going to be rare this year on television? It looks as if we are going to be given 'highlights' from the week's concerts. So much for the Proms planners' skills in programme-building.

This is happening already. The lunchtime slot featuring concerts from festivals is restricted to one hour. So (to take an example) next week we will have "highlights" from the East Neuk Festival. The wonderful concerts which I heard last week will be mangled in the broadcasts.

[David-G]

I tend to enjoy these immersion events and listened a lot more to Radio 3 during the Schubertiade than I do normally.

At last, someone who feels as I do. I also enjoy these immersion events and listened a lot more to Radio 3 during the "Schubert Fest" than I do normally. Some of the presentation in the latter may have been woeful, but I would strongly dispute that the Schubertiade and similar events inherently represent dumbing-down.

[DavidP]

it's not 'because it is film music' that it is 'light' (as I said - you can mention many scores, I'm sure, that aren't). It's that the works that one hears most often under the title 'film music' - the themes from the blockbusters - are mainly 'light' and broadly popular. These aren't regular features of the concert hall (as yet).

Then why not call for a broader range of film music to be played in the concert hall? R3 could make a major contribution to this. Oh, I forget – you don’t want R3 to play it at all. So, yet another disingenuous argument from you.

Gershwin wrote a piano concerto, often played (esp. in part on Radio 3). That doesn't mean that everything he wrote is 'classical'. Nor does it mean that nothing written by a standard classical composer can be described as 'non-classical'. Composers do straddle both traditions.

How do you define ‘classical’ or ‘non-classical’? If the musical language, grammar etc is the same, the stylistic differences between film and non-film less than between one ‘school’ of composition or another or one composer and another you need to find another way of differentiating between the two other than just on the basis of your personal whims. Good luck with that! Even better luck trying to find universal agreement for it as well!

Perhaps in turn, you'd like to say which contemporary classical works are 'rubbish'?

No, I’d rather not just in case the composer is another one of Ferney’s favourites!

The water is being muddied by Radio 3's current strategy to make itself more popular with the general public which feels 'daunted' (BBC word) by classical music. The Proms, having the same man in charge, is resolutely following the same course. Post Proms press releases have been reporting how many children attended the Proms, how many attended for the first time. This ticks boxes. The film music Proms will bring in new audiences and at the film Proms they'll enjoy the theme music already familiar to them through having seen the film [e.g. 2011: Star Wars, Schindler's List and Harry Potter; Murder on the Orient Express; Out of Africa (love theme); music from the James Bond films]; or through having heard it on other outlets.

Gosh! Heaven forbid R3 should try to gain new listeners!

As was said, the coming Film Season on Radio 3 is targeted on new listeners for whom classical music is not at present a reason to listen to Radio 3. 'Reaching a new audience with Radio 3'? What's stopping them listening now? 'Classical music'?

I, along with many others, came to ‘classical music’ through films in the first place. But then maybe I’m just another pleb.

[french frank]

Then why not call for a broader range of film music to be played in the concert hall? R3 could make a major contribution to this. Oh, I forget – you don’t want R3 to play it at all. So, yet another disingenuous argument from you.

It is your assertion that I 'don’t want R3 to play it at all'. There is a difference between playing a particular piece 'because it is film music' (as in a 'film music Prom' or a 'film music season') and playing a piece of music which, incidentally, happens to have been composed for film (like Schoenberg's 'Music to Accompany a Short Film', 1930). The BBC (ignorantly) holds a similar view to mine: that 'film music' means particularly the music from the recent blockbuster films; whereas I'm sure you have a more nuanced understanding.

How do you define ‘classical’ or ‘non-classical’? If the musical language, grammar etc is the same, the stylistic differences between film and non-film less than between one ‘school’ of composition or another or one composer and another you need to find another way of differentiating between the two other than just on the basis of your personal whims. Good luck with that! Even better luck trying to find universal agreement for it as well!

Quite so. But film music has been declared a 'genre' and is specially featured on Classic FM as such. Why should Radio 3 annoy the industry yet again by muscling in on what Classic FM has introduced? They're angry enough as it is that Radio 3 is 'aping Classic FM' with its charts, nation's favourite polls and A-Zs.

No, I’d rather not just in case the composer is another one of Ferney’s favourites!

Very wise. You might say the wrong thing.

Gosh! Heaven forbid R3 should try to gain new listeners!

It's not so much heaven as the BBC's Royal Charter which forbids the BBC's publicly funded service from attempting to gain its new listeners from existing commercial services. As I said, Classic FM already caters for film music enthusiasts. We've long ago given up expecting Radio 3 to do the same things better.

I, along with many others, came to ‘classical music’ through films in the first place. But then maybe I’m just another pleb.

I would never suggest you were a pleb merely that you have 'personal whims' too.

[DavidP]

The BBC (ignorantly) holds a similar view to mine: that 'film music' means particularly the music from the recent blockbuster films; whereas I'm sure you have a more nuanced understanding.

First, let's see how broad and nuanced R3's coverage is in this upcoming month. If it merely consists of the theme to Star Wars or Bond Themes then let both you and I pressure R3 into doing the thing properly next time.

Secondly, I'd be happy to broaden your knowledge of the film music repertoire first by giving you list of listening suggestions. Once you've listened I guarantee many of what I'll cautiously call your preconceived notions about the nature of film music will fall away or failing that at least we could have a discussion on a more “equal” basis.

But film music has been declared a 'genre'

Not by me! You're being disingenuous again.

It's not so much heaven as the BBC's Royal Charter which forbids the BBC's publicly funded service from attempting to gain its new listeners from existing commercial services. As I said, Classic FM already caters for film music enthusiasts. We've long ago given up expecting Radio 3 to do the same things better.

I knew you'd try this 'tactic' again. Why should R3 have its musical horizons decided by CFM! CFM does not own Film music any more than it owns, for example, V-W's The Lark Ascending (which was No.1 in its “Hall of Fame”) or many of the other classical 'pops' it chooses to hammer away at from morning to night. Is it against the Royal Charter to play these pieces as well now?

I would never suggest you were a pleb merely that you have 'personal whims' too.

We don't have to rely on either your personal whims or mine to reach a judgement. Yet again I'd be happy to broaden your knowledge of how the many classical composers who wrote for films over the last 100 years regarded their own work.

[Beef Oven]

First, let's see how broad and nuanced the R3's coverage is in this upcoming month. If it merely consists of the theme to Star Wars or Bond Themes then let both you and I pressure R3 into doing the thing properly next time.

Secondly, I'd be happy to broaden your knowledge of the film music repertoire first by giving you list of listening suggestions. Once you've listened I guarantee many of what about the nature of film music will fall away or, failing that, at least we could have a discussion on a more “equal” basis.



Not by me! Your being disingenuous again.



I knew you'd try this 'tactic' again. Why should R3 have its musical horizons decided by CFM! CFM does not own Film music any more than it owns, for example, V-W's The Lark Ascending (which was No.1 in its “Hall of Fame”) or many of the other classical 'pops' it chooses to hammer away at from morning to night. Is it against the Royal Charter to play these pieces as well now?



You're being disingenuous again. Yet again I'd be happy broaden your knowledge of how the many classical composers who wrote for films over the last 100 years regarded their own work.

Can I have your list of suggestions please, so I might broaden my knowledge?

Thanks

[DavidP]

Can I have your list of suggestions please, so I might broaden my knowledge?

Thanks

If you're serious (which, looking over your previous contributions to this forum, I would tend to doubt) then pm me and I'll happily send you a list of relevant books and CD's.

[Beef Oven]

If you're serious (which, looking over your previous contributions to this forum, I would tend to doubt) then pm me and I'll happily send you a list of relevant books and CD's.

I've sent a pm.

[doversoul1]

DavidP
Do you, by any chance, have more reference to this project on film music on Radio 3 than this?

For three weeks, beginning 16 September 2013, BBC Radio 3 is focusing on ‘the music that made the movies’.
http://www.makingmusic.org.uk/our-wo...th-bbc-radio-3 (posted by French franc #65)

From this description it clearly suggests that the project is about ‘the themes from the blockbusters’ (french frank #82), or similarly well know/popular film music.

This is the point of the discussion of this thread and I object to this for the reason french frank has already pointed out more than once.

If you want to discuss film music in general, or about why some film music should be played on Radio3, why not start a new thread? You may be surprised to find that there are many film music experts on the forum.

[french frank]

Oh, dear.

I knew you'd try this 'tactic' again. Why should R3 have its musical horizons decided by CFM! CFM does not own Film music any more than it owns, for example, V-W's The Lark Ascending (which was No.1 in its “Hall of Fame”) or many of the other classical 'pops' it chooses to hammer away at from morning to night. Is it against the Royal Charter to play these pieces as well now?

The Royal Charter is a legal document, with an Agreement entered into between the BBC and the government. It states specifically that the BBC is not allowed (it 'agreed') to use its (publicly funded) services to compete directly with an existing commercial service. Classic FM was first to adopt a remit to broadcast lighter, more popular orchestral/classical music, not then offered by the BBC, to the broader public, a service which could be relied on to attract a reasonable size of audience, without which it would have no advertisers. It has included 'film music' as one of its featured genres and has already complained that Radio 3 has been introducing such music as part of its strategy to appeal to 'the broader audience'. Classic FM would appear to have the law on its side in this. But why should it care if Radio 3 tries to gain a share of its listening and audience? it only means a drop in advertising revenue, whereas the BBC continues to get its 'tax'. Broadcasting in this country is a regulated ecology where the public service must leave 'space' (to use the current phrase) for commercial broadcasters. That's why Classic FM can 'decide' Radio 3's horizons where they expand them to invade its own territory. I imagine Radio 3 played 'The Lark Ascending' long before Classic FM was thought of.

You know a lot about film music; you know nothing about the BBC's legal obligations. Until you have recognised this point discussion is useless.

[John Wright]

Hey guys just listen to this, with or without visuals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyamPHp_5pU

I found it very enjoyable, might record it next time I listen.

John