The Classic FM-isation of R3 is almost complete

[Hitch]

Might one, timidly, compare a musical Mass to a film soundtrack?

[Frances_iom]

Might one, timidly, compare a musical Mass to a film soundtrack?

only Lenny's

[Ferretfancy]

I step rather hesitantly into this thrilling no-holds-barred scrap between Sir Velo and DavidP to wonder if there isn't an inherent difficulty about film music that militates against its success in, even acceptance into, the realms of the concert repertoire of classical music.

To state the obvious, it isn't designed to be freestanding and to follow any pre-existent form or even any inherently self-generated form. Its job is to accompany a visual image, and very frequently to follow the emotional contour of a scene. Indeed, not follow but to anticipate, in some degree to tell viewers where the film is going next. Its form, if that is the right word, is largely dictated by the the narrative and the visuals. It's not surprising then surely if it can seem somewhat formless when it is deprived of its attendant visuals.

Of course some people buy the film-soundtrack CD and if it works for them that's fine. But much of the greatest film music on 'ordinary' classical CDs and in the concert hall has had a pretty big rewrite. Think of Scott of the Antarctic's metamorphosis into Sinfonia Antartica and the work Prokofiev put in to create a formal frame for his cantata Alexander Nevsky.

When what we get is a suite from the film music such as Walton's Shakespeare scores or DSCH's The Gadfly we remain surely on a lower plateau of what is distinctive about classical music over more 'popular' R2-ish fare, its long-term sense of development, symphonic integration, etc etc which of course is there, if at all, to a much lesser extent in the 'mere' non-film orchestral suite. Yes, there are plenty of good 'uns in this genre but it isn't the top of the trees. And a whole prom of orchestral suites probably wouldn't have enough meat and muscle in it for most of us here on these boards.

Of course, we have no legal protection for these tastes, but that doesn't mean we have to bow to the forces of 'equality' that seem to demand that all radio musical fare is instantly appealing to almost everybody. (That's my version of what ff and FoR are fighting for in the great R3 dumbing-down debate!)

It's interesting to read your comments on Alexander Nevsky. The film music as it survives has one of the worst recorded soundtracks of all time. Prokofiev wrote what we hear for a modestly sized chamber ensemble, the cantata on the other hand uses a full symphony orchestra and chorus. Earlier this year Martyn Brabbins conducted a splendid performance to accompany a showing of the film using the scoring for the cantata. This involved changing the sequence of some numbers, and adding passages that are in the film but not in the cantata. The music on the track is for the most part clear of the dialogue, and scenes like the Battle on the Ice are played without sound effects. All this was very cleverly managed so that we saw and heard dialogue, soloists, chorus and orchestra on a satisfyingly large scale.

Works like Lieutenant Kije, Walton's film music, Aaron Copland's and a few others do work when arranged as suites. The problem for me is that soundtrack CDs often contain long passages which were originally intended to underscore action or dialogue, and simply don't stand up to repeated listening. That is not a criticism of the composers, they are not writing for the concert hall. When they do, as in the case of Korngold or Rota for example, they adopt a different approach.

[LeMartinPecheur]

But if you took out the words "film music" from that sentence wouldn't you actually be removing quite a bit of other music that you and others would expect to find on R3?

Aeolium: yes absolutely - LMP's irony-light was fully switched on when he wrote that bit!

But still, I do think film music earns its place in the 'serious' classical repertoire only when it behaves properly as 'classical' music. That's not to take away from the likes of The Magnificent Seven, Star Wars, 633 Squadron. They stand very high as film music, maybe as serious light music, but not I think on the proper classical-CD-shop shelves or on mainstream R3, Proms etc.

[And on symphonies, whatever their differences in form, orchestration etc, don't most of them (once past the early sinfonias) use symphonic development techniques? Their bits have to create the feeling they all belong together, that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The end of the symphony, however surprising, must feel that it is somehow implicit in the start. Contrast suites - see earlier arguments!]

[french frank]

The best film music is imv definitely worthy of inclusion in a Prom.

We go round in circles on this discussion. Why is it thought that a Prom should be devoted to film music (especially if this is to become an annual fixture)? Is the preferred context for Daphnis et Chloé a Prom devoted to ballet music?

[aeolium]

We go round in circles on this discussion. Why is it thought that a Prom should be devoted to film music (especially if this is to become an annual fixture)? Is the preferred context for Daphnis et Chloé a Prom devoted to ballet music?

But there have been and are Proms devoted to ballet and dance music. Indeed, the fourth Prom this year is entirely devoted to ballet and dance music and obviously in a conscious way. There are other Proms which focus on certain styles of dance music, e.g. Viennese waltz. Film music could be spread around different concerts - Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky cantata, which is essentially music from the film, doesn't often appear in Proms devoted to film music - but then that might be an even greater irritant to those who find something objectionable in the idea of film music being played at all.

LMP's irony-light was fully switched on when he wrote that bit!

Sorry, LMP - my irony detector was obviously not! (it did seem to follow on from an earlier paragraph which I think you intended to be serious)

[DavidP]

Aeolium.

Well said!

LeMartinPecheur.

Yes, you are stating the obvious. But ‘the obvious’ can also be an over-simplification. It’s true, the primary purpose of the music isn’t to be ‘freestanding’ but to serve the needs of the film and this may limit the appeal of the music to a hard-core classical audience. But there are exceptions, cases where the music transcends its original purpose and can be listened to in its own right. You would be surprised how often the composers themselves have had one eye on this when writing the music. Then, there are many cases where the music was composed before the film and scenes in the film cut to it and other cases where the music plays the leading role in a scene. These stand a better than average chance of being satisfying in their own right. But it’s true, a large amount of film music does indeed need to be arranged or assembled into suites (and the composers themselves have always been happy to do this) if it is to played in the concert hall (or on R3).

Where I disagree with you strongly is where you regard the music as belonging on a lower plateau simply because it doesn’t conform to your rather ‘purist’ notions of what ‘serious’ music should be. This dividing music into higher and lower art forms has a long and rather inglorious history, beginning with Wagner’s infamous “Judaism in Music” and ending Milton Babbit's contemptuous dismissal of the audience. Following your criteria there is an awful lot of music that would have to be discounted, including most program music or incidental music for the stage.

French Frank.

It’s just as well then that I’m not redefining classical music as 'music played by a big orchestra'! Sadly for you there is just far more film music that has rather more than a “scant connection stylistically with classical music of the same era” than you care to admit. But then, given your ignorance of the subject I’m not surprised you are unaware of this.

And, yes, that is my opinion - just rather better informed!

Thropplenoggin.

You started the thread. Tell us why you have a bee in your bonnet about film music. Failed film composer, perhaps?

[gurnemanz]

Listed under the 'next issue' section (September) of the BBC MM website:

Film music
As Radio 3 gears up to celebrate music of the silver screen, we ask ten great film composers about the music scores they most admire

Another month, another gimmick to get the plebs to listen, following on from the total immersion Schubertiad, Wagner Week, Baroque Spring, British Composer month.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Hands up as a pleb. Obviously not all film music has merit, but, for instance, Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky music on the South Bank a few weeks ago is a recent concert highlight. I tend to enjoy these immersion events and listened a lot more to Radio 3 during the Schubertiade than I do normally.

[Nick Armstrong]

But there are exceptions

Agreed. So just play the exceptions from time to time.

[DavidP]

Agreed. So just play the exceptions from time to time.

You'd have to specify what you mean by 'from time to time' but substantially I agree.

[Dave2002]

would it help if I point out that R3 doesn't yet have adverts for Hernia repair surgeries every 10 minutes?

ts

You shouldn't have written that. You'll be giving some people ideas.

[Dave2002]

Plus, there's that worrying phenomenon of the ever-shrinking, then disappearing classical section in the HMV. That's the sort of thing we're up against, and modernising is essential.

Not to mention the disappearance of HMV itself .... OK - it still has a presence on some high streets. I think its stock market listing has gone though, and it may not return.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Milton Babbit's contemptuous dismissal of the audience.

Where is this? (I can't find it in my copy of Babbitt's collected writings).

[DavidP]

Where is this? (I can't find it in my copy of Babbitt's collected writings).

Ferrney

I’m thinking of his essay, “Who Cares if You Listen” where he says that “the composer would do himself and his music an immediate and eventual service by total, resolute, and voluntary withdrawal from [the] public world to one of private performance and electronic media, with its very real possibility of complete elimination of the public and social aspects of musical composition."

I can't remember the date but I think he wrote it for Hi-Fidelity Magazine. It's quoted in Ivan Hewitt's book based on the R3 series marking the turn of the Millenium in the chapter "Music and the Masses" (I have the radio programme not the book - yes, sad, I keep recordings of old R3 programmes!)

[Nick Armstrong]

You'd have to specify what you mean by 'from time to time' but substantially I agree.

I suppose I just mean: as opposed to the less-discriminate 'immersion' approach R3 seem reportedly to be planning ("Film music month" or whatever).