The Classic FM-isation of R3 is almost complete

[VodkaDilc]

but because whole concerts are now restricted to the ghettoes of Radio 3 and BBC Four and popular entertainment is presented in 'dumbed down' form.

Didn't I read that whole Proms are going to be rare this year on television? It looks as if we are going to be given 'highlights' from the week's concerts. So much for the Proms planners' skills in programme-building.

[DavidP]

But it isn't included in Radio 3's service licence remit (unlike e.g. jazz and world music). It is, in contrast, a staple of Classic FM.

I used to take a softer line on this, but now we also have regular Doctor Who, Urban 'classic' &c. And whereas the light music Proms used to be on BBC Two, they've now been moved to BBC Four, with BBC Two limiting itself to 'highlights'. If the phrase 'dumbing down' means anything, this is it: not because 'film music' itself is dumbing down, but because whole concerts are now restricted to the ghettoes of Radio 3 and BBC Four and popular entertainment is presented in 'dumbed down' form.

You do realise that many "classical" composers in the last 100 years have also written music for films?

[Sir Velo]

There is a difference between expressing an opinion and giving vent to a prejudice. Besides, not all opinions are created equal.

Well, if that's not arrogant I don't know what is!

You obviously didn't ready my post #11 did you? If you had've done, you would have seen that I took pains not to denigrate film music per se. In fact, I expressly pointed out my enthusiasm for some film music. The knee jerk reactions were not coming from me, I think you'll find.

[french frank]

You do realise that many "classical" composers in the last 100 years have also written music for films?

Yes.

Didn't I read that whole Proms are going to be rare this year on television?

This is the list so far:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/proms/whats-on/2013/categories/proms-on-tv

NB

"BBC Two will broadcast 'Highlights of the Proms' on Saturday evenings throughout the festival

Particular highlights include the Doctor Who Prom on BBC One and the Urban Classic Prom on BBC Three - plus Proms in the Park around the country live online and via the red button."

[DavidP]

Sorry, Velo, but you do seem rather ignorant about the subject of your derision (Vaughan-Williams took writing music for film very seriously - hence my Wagner quote) and I thought your first sentence rather silly. An informed opinion will nearly always trump an ill-informed one in my book. If that's arrogance then I plead guilty.

French Frank, so you do realise many "classical" composers in the last 100 years have also written music for films. That being so I don't understand why R3's remit comes into this at all. Film music - if it is of high quality - has as much right to be considered part of the classical tradition as music written for ballet or incidental music for the stage.

The fact that CFM chooses to co-opt (and that a very narrow range) of film music doesn't alter this. Any more than their their constant mauling of a few 'classics', like Elgar's Cello Concerto (1st movement only, mind!) should alter out attitude to these pieces either.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I step rather hesitantly into this thrilling no-holds-barred scrap between Sir Velo and DavidP to wonder if there isn't an inherent difficulty about film music that militates against its success in, even acceptance into, the realms of the concert repertoire of classical music.

To state the obvious, it isn't designed to be freestanding and to follow any pre-existent form or even any inherently self-generated form. Its job is to accompany a visual image, and very frequently to follow the emotional contour of a scene. Indeed, not follow but to anticipate, in some degree to tell viewers where the film is going next. Its form, if that is the right word, is largely dictated by the the narrative and the visuals. It's not surprising then surely if it can seem somewhat formless when it is deprived of its attendant visuals.

Of course some people buy the film-soundtrack CD and if it works for them that's fine. But much of the greatest film music on 'ordinary' classical CDs and in the concert hall has had a pretty big rewrite. Think of Scott of the Antarctic's metamorphosis into Sinfonia Antartica and the work Prokofiev put in to create a formal frame for his cantata Alexander Nevsky.

When what we get is a suite from the film music such as Walton's Shakespeare scores or DSCH's The Gadfly we remain surely on a lower plateau of what is distinctive about classical music over more 'popular' R2-ish fare, its long-term sense of development, symphonic integration, etc etc which of course is there, if at all, to a much lesser extent in the 'mere' non-film orchestral suite. Yes, there are plenty of good 'uns in this genre but it isn't the top of the trees. And a whole prom of orchestral suites probably wouldn't have enough meat and muscle in it for most of us here on these boards.

Of course, we have no legal protection for these tastes, but that doesn't mean we have to bow to the forces of 'equality' that seem to demand that all radio musical fare is instantly appealing to almost everybody. (That's my version of what ff and FoR are fighting for in the great R3 dumbing-down debate!)

[teamsaint]

The next thing you know, there'll be a programme - sorry, "show" - presented by Lynne Truss.

I doubt if it would get much support, Ferney.

Hernias are no laughing matter, especially if you have one !!

Or Two !

[french frank]

French Frank, so you do realise many "classical" composers in the last 100 years have also written music for films. That being so I don't understand why R3's remit comes into this at all. Film music - if it is of high quality - has as much right to be considered part of the classical tradition as music written for ballet or incidental music for the stage.

That is merely a statement of opinion on your part.

The film music of, say, Walton or Korngold, might very well be broadcast on Radio 3, not because it is high quality film music, but because it might cast light on the non film music written by these composers: symphonies, concertos, operas which are in the classical repertoire and are performed with some regularity.

Hollywood film music, MGM musicals or a John Williams score, may well be high quality, but unless you are redefining classical music as 'music played by a big orchestra' it has scant connection stylistically with classical music of the same era, whatever definition you care to use. If I'm mistaken on that (which I may be) what musical definition are you using?

[aeolium]

To state the obvious, it isn't designed to be freestanding and to follow any pre-existent form or even any inherently self-generated form. Its job is to accompany a visual image, and very frequently to follow the emotional contour of a scene. Indeed, not follow but to anticipate, in some degree to tell viewers where the film is going next. Its form, if that is the right word, is largely dictated by the the narrative and the visuals. It's not surprising then surely if it can seem somewhat formless when it is deprived of its attendant visuals.

But you could say something similar about dance music or stage music, Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet, Mendelssohn's Incidental Music to A Midsummer Night's Dream, Beethoven's Prometheus, Rameau's dance music incorporated into his operas. You could just as well say that the Mendelssohn MND music can seem "somewhat formless when it is deprived of its attendant visuals." Those works were originally intended to accompany visual images but are often played stand-alone (at least, the Beethoven is not often performed complete but if it was, no-one would be talking about it as representing a lowering of standards).

Perhaps the real problem, then, is not so much the nature of the music as the medium for which it was conceived. Film is an inherently popular medium, theatre and ballet (and the dance music of the court) much less so. So is this really a question, not of standards, but of class?

[teamsaint]

to pick up on Aeolium's point, sort of, since my chances of seeing any Arthur Bliss Ballet scores performed as actual ballets seem to be exactly zero, (Adam Zero in fact) I really wish somebody would use them in film medium, (really well of course), and the music picked up and used on Daytime R3.
The would be film music I guess, but hey, who cares?!

[LeMartinPecheur]

But you could say something similar about dance music or stage music, Prokofiev's Romeo & Juliet, Mendelssohn's Incidental Music to A Midsummer Night's Dream, Beethoven's Prometheus, Rameau's dance music incorporated into his operas. You could just as well say that the Mendelssohn MND music can seem "somewhat formless when it is deprived of its attendant visuals." Those works were originally intended to accompany visual images but are often played stand-alone (at least, the Beethoven is not often performed complete but if it was, no-one would be talking about it as representing a lowering of standards).

Perhaps the real problem, then, is not so much the nature of the music as the medium for which it was conceived. Film is an inherently popular medium, theatre and ballet (and the dance music of the court) much less so. So is this really a question, not of standards, but of class?

Aeolian, um well, I did think of ballet as I wrote. But ballet music does generally follow simple classical forms like ABA or AA'A doesn't it? - there's usually a return of some sort to the beginning idea, unless it's all highly dramatic when the story-line requires a sudden interruption by 'something completely different'. And can't we also point back to dance movements in the 'abstract' music of JSB and his contemporaries? Is this about closed forms and open forms, if I'm using the terms right, something like ABA or ABACA as opposed to AB, ABC, ABCDEFG?

Stage music I agree needs a bit more work. But quite a lot of it is, once again, dance music. And how much stage music has made it to the heart of the classical repertoire? Mendelssohn MSND for sure, but aren't the 4 pieces that we regularly hear all big pieces in near-symphonic forms and certainly on that scale? Marches and Scherzos do fit rather frequently into symphonies, while overtures are even closer in that they are often standard sonata-form structures, are they not?

I think stage music is a good area to discuss in this context. Some of it becomes free-standing in the concert hall and even more so on CD (I think immediately of Sibelius suites). But a) isn't it still regarded as a lesser genre than symphonies, concertos, quartets), and b) does the stuff that does cross over do so very frequently by virtue its size/weight and symphonic working-out?

"R3 (FoR3?) likes its film music big and symphonic" - Discuss.

EDIT "These message boards DEMAND that any film music Prom feature only such music as manifests symphonic development in proper classical forms"

[Thropplenoggin]

Not sure why DavidP has got such a bee in his bonnet over this, unless, perhaps, he is himself a film composer.

I think Sir Velo and FF have given sound arguments for why another 'month dedicated to...' is inappropriate for R3. Why can't R3 remain the preserve of a certain serious-minded, high culture folk (whose number can't be that few, surely) instead of attempting to cater to 'all tastes' (or, rather, those who struggle with classical music)? But, as we see from the increasingly inane R2-style presenters in the prime-time slots - loud, yawping, musically-inept* - it's going the way of popularisation, which mean watered down fare, thin gruel for the masses; mediocrity.

*See Tom McKinney's Blue Peter-esque dribblings last week, quite destroying an otherwise interesting concert: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b033fmc0

[Nick Armstrong]

not all opinions are created equal

That's quite a statement. And a bit of a give-away...

I step rather hesitantly into this thrilling no-holds-barred scrap between Sir Velo and DavidP

film music ...isn't designed to be freestanding and to follow any pre-existent form or even any inherently self-generated form. Its job is to accompany a visual image, and very frequently to follow the emotional contour of a scene. Indeed, not follow but to anticipate, in some degree to tell viewers where the film is going next. Its form, if that is the right word, is largely dictated by the the narrative and the visuals. It's not surprising then surely if it can seem somewhat formless when it is deprived of its attendant visuals

I'm inclined to agree with this - and I'm not sure that the argument about ballet undermines the point. Ballet is an artform where the music and movement coexist in some sense as 'joint equals' - whereas in film, the music is almost always subsidiary (nonetheless vital) to the visuals and dialogue. I love cinema and much film music. I've bought CDs of film music a few times over the years, enthused after hearing it in context, and been disappointed - inevitably, much is repetitive and actually too thin to sustain interest, listened to in isolation. It's not a criticism - it's functional music. It does such music a disservice to expose it in isolation, often. There are exceptions (usually by composers who could also work in 'stand-alone' concert music like Walton et al).

(With interruptions, it's taken me about an hour to complete this message - the thread's probably moved on and rendered this totally redundant by now! )

[BBMmk2]

Extend this to opera, as well? Althouigh, in my case, I always imagine what th artists are dressed like etc. Imagination in these circumstances?

[aeolium]

EDIT "These message boards DEMAND that any film music Prom feature only such music as manifests symphonic development in proper classical forms"

But if you took out the words "film music" from that sentence wouldn't you actually be removing quite a bit of other music that you and others would expect to find on R3? Wasn't there a discussion about symphonies and symphonic form on the boards recently where the conclusion seemed to be, effectively, that anything that claimed to be a symphony (or "symphonic") ought to be considered so, irrespective of its adherence to "proper classical forms"?

I take yours and Caliban's point about the distinction between ballet music and film music - I was trying to make the point that there was nothing in principle about writing music to accompany images, whether of dance, stage or film, which should disqualify it from inclusion in a classical Prom. I agree that quite a lot of film music can seem thin when divorced from the image, but that can also be true of ballet music (I wouldn't personally listen to Tchaikovsky's complete Nutcracker ballet, for instance, not because of shortcomings in the music but because it needs the images). I would say most ballet music (not Stravinsky's) needs to be reduced into suites for concert performance, and the same is true of most film music that is worth hearing stand-alone. The best film music is imv definitely worthy of inclusion in a Prom. It will necessarily be episodic rather than symphonic in character but so what?