Words, words, words

[Bert Coules]

I don't want to reopen the hoary old argument as to pros and cons, but speaking purely personally I did think it was splendid to hear Schubert's The Hurdy Gurdy Man in English the other day: if one is not absolutely fluent in German, a performance in one's own language really does make the experience far more immediate and visceral, and I wish there could be more.

Bert

[ardcarp]

After this week I shall scream if I hear Schubert of any sort...so they can sing in Serbo-Craot if they like. Die Forelle was an O-level set work for me (in the days when they had such things) and even at age 15 I thought what a terribly trite trout it was;

An angler there was standing
With rod and line in hand
Intent upon the fishes
A sportive fearless band

...or some such drivel. Much better not to understand it in some alien tongue.

[Bert Coules]

Ah, but isn't it possible that the German words are every bit as trite? Don't you want the authentic experience?

Now you come to mention it, there has been quite a lot of Schubert about, hasn't there? I wonder if anybody else has noticed?

Bert

[salymap]

Ah, but isn't it possible that the German words are every bit as trite? Don't you want the authentic experience?

Now you come to mention it, there has been quite a lot of Schubert about, hasn't there? I wonder if anybody else has noticed?




































Bert

I for one agree Bert. My German is very limited and itwould be good to have the option of an English version sometimes, although probably trite. I remember some toe-curlingly embarrassing translations of Mozart arias years ago.

[salymap]

Sorry about the space - my hands and computer are not in agreement it seems. And yes, now that you mention it, there is a lot of Schubert about, still in BCs though, sadly.

[cloughie]

I for one agree Bert. My German is very limited and itwould be good to have the option of an English version sometimes, although probably trite. I remember some toe-curlingly embarrassing translations of Mozart arias years ago.

I often think that translation gets in the way of a beautiful sound. One year i was watching Mahler 4 from the Proms, the finale I had always thought really beautiful - it has not been the same since the trite translation came up on the subtitles. Often, in English poems put to music seem to to stretch and scan badly.

[Bert Coules]

But songs - like opera - are about rather more than "a beautiful sound". The meaning of the words is at least as important as the noise they make, and arguably far more so.

Of course I agree that poor and inept translations do this stance no good at all, and regrettably there are a great many of them about. There used to be a (one man, possibly) company called "Lieder without the language barrier" which gave concerts in excellent, newly-written English versions. I wonder if they're still active?

Bert

[MrGongGong]

But songs - like opera - are about rather more than "a beautiful sound". The meaning of the words is at least as important as the noise they make, and arguably far more so.

Not according to some in here (see discussion on a particular oratorio by Elgar....... )

[Bert Coules]

Well yes, as I said in my first post above, this is one of the great unresolvable debates, isn't it? I rather suspect that it's a matter on which opinions are fixed very early, rarely to be revised. In the case of opera I believe that the route one takes to the genre has a major influence: those who come to music drama via the concert hall tend to view the question very differently from those who discover it through the theatre.

On the particular question of Schubert, I have an excellent CD of The Winter Journey performed by Peter Allanson and Kenneth Mobbs in a splendid translation by Leslie Minchin which I'd recommend to anyone who wants to give the idea a try. It can be ordered here and there are samples available on the same page. Allanson's delivery is perhaps occasionally a touch too English Oratorio for my ideal taste but that's to carp: it's a fine performance.

Bert

[Serial_Apologist]

Not according to some in here (see discussion on a particular oratorio by Elgar....... )

Wasn't it Saussure who argued the relationship between words, as signifiers, and what they describe, the signified, to be arbitrarily based, and intermeshed within the grammatical and syntactical webs of linguistic conventions - as opposed to arising from some quasi-mystical organic connection with the natural - the line plugged by the Romantics and the Symbolists? Wagner argued in Oper und Drama for the superiority of the German language for his project of re-grounding music and language in the sensuous roots of communication common to both, as he saw it

I tend towards Saussure's view on this - always personally having found difficulty in attending to conjunctions of spoken poetry and music - but I can see how the sheer beauty of certain languages, particularly well-spoken Italian, (but not English imv, and certainly not German!) - could lead one to stray towards the opposite viewpoint.

[Bert Coules]

Fascinating stuff. Interestingly (or not) I've always found German to be a far more beautiful-sounding language than Italian.

Wagner, famously, moaned about a French singing version of his Tannhäuser: "Haven't you got a better word for love than amour?" he asked.

Bert

[Roehre]

Fascinating stuff. Interestingly (or not) I've always found German to be a far more beautiful-sounding language than Italian.

That makes two of us, Bert

[Panjandrum]

I can see how the sheer beauty of certain languages, particularly well-spoken Italian, (but not English imv).

I've got to take issue with you there S_A. Take just one example, "The splendour falls on castle walls" to realise just what an exceptionally musically poetic language English is when from the pen of a master. That image can't help but capitvate the imagination with a sense of chivalric, arthurian romance. The failings, where they exist, have to be with the translators or the original subject matter, rather than the English language per se.

[aeolium]

Apart from the difficulty of providing good translations that retain both metre and sense in songs, there is another problem which is the deracination from the cultural resonances in the music. For instance, take a couple of examples, Schubert's Der Wanderer an den Mond set to a poem by Seidl, and Schumann's In der Fremde from the Liederkreis op 39 cycle set to a poem by Eichendorff. In the Schubert, the second verse "Ich wandre fremd von Land zu Land,/So heimatlos, so unbekannt;/Berg auf, Berg ab, Wald ein, Wald aus,/Doch bin ich nirgend, ach! zu Haus." can of course be translated well but singing it in English will immediately dull the resonances of German romanticism, the evocation of Caspar David Friedrich paintings or Jean Paul stories and perhaps give the song the unwanted association of orienteering in the Highlands. And the same problem applies (even more so) to the words of In der Fremde with the references to an almost apocalyptic sky and that untranslatable term Waldeinsamkeit. The fact is, you are not just translating the words of a song, you are translating a whole culture.

[Bert Coules]

...but singing it in English will immediately dull the resonances of German romanticism...

Assuming that those resonances are recognised and appreciated. What if they're not? And even if they are, I argue that a sensitive translation into the language of the audience can give an artistic and dramatic experience superior to hearing the sound of the text but not its meaning. Not only superior but far, far closer to the experience intended by the original creators of the piece.

Bert