Through the Night

[antongould]

I think it is particularly unfair to use this thread about TTN for generalised kvetching about R3 presenters in general. My experience, over several years of dipping into TTN during (often extended) periods of insomnia, is that John Shea, Catriona Young and Jonathan Swain make skilled use of the very limited time at their disposal for commentary. The space for continuity announcements is tightly managed. Often the remarks are witty, generally well-informed, and avoid the well-rehearsed anecdotes about familiar pieces. I also would say it is a showplace for often unusual or infrequently played works.

Very well said, IMVVHO, Kb - I enjoy TTN and was impressed by what I heard of the young lady ….

[oddoneout]

I think it is particularly unfair to use this thread about TTN for generalised kvetching about R3 presenters in general. My experience, over several years of dipping into TTN during (often extended) periods of insomnia, is that John Shea, Catriona Young and Jonathan Swain make skilled use of the very limited time at their disposal for commentary. The space for continuity announcements is tightly managed. Often the remarks are witty, generally well-informed, and avoid the well-rehearsed anecdotes about familiar pieces. I also would say it is a showplace for often unusual or infrequently played works.

This is in essence what I was getting at, but didn't express myself very well. Having lots of qualifications of whatever sort doesn't necessarily mean that a person is good at the job they are required to do. That isn't the same as saying that anyone can do it, and nor am I making any sort of judgement about the current presenters, as I also find them to be part of the benefit of TTN, for the reasons you mention. I think that DJ has potential to be a good addition to the team - not least because she speaks so clearly it is easy to make out what she is saying even at low volume, which is what TTN has to be at when I am listening.
I don't want to get into the general presenter realms but would say that I think it is a pity that the R3 presenters are not able to make better use of the knowledge and experience they have between them, due to management's ideas of what R3 is now supposed to be offering its listeners. If TTN must be fiddled with then what a shame that those you mention, and others, cannot have the chance, even if only occasionally, to have a slot to use their talents, instead of having Dumbtime inflicted on us.

[smittims]

And now they've taken her away (ho ho, he hee, ha haaa) before I had a chance to find out if, like the other presenters, she knew, for instance, that there was a Richard as well as a Giles Farnaby, that there were two Groneman brothers, both composers, that Vaughan Williams' Romance for viola and piano isn't a transcription of his Harmonica romance; in short, the sort of in-depth knowledge displayed nearly every morning by the three regular presenters. Having a degree in recorder performance no doubt involves knowledge and skill but it is, all the same , a specialised segment of the musical world.

Maybe if anyone from the BBC reads this thread they may have taken the point.

[Bryn]

And now they've taken her away (ho ho, he hee, ha haaa) before I had a chance to find out if, like the other presenters, she knew, for instance, that there was a Richard as well as a Giles Farnaby, that there were two Groneman brothers, both composers, that Vaughan Williams' Romance for viola and piano isn't a transcription of his Harmonica romance; in short, the sort of in-depth knowledge displayed nearly every morning by the three regular presenters. Having a degree in recorder performance no doubt involves knowledge and skill but it is, all the same , a specialised segment of the musical world.

Maybe if anyone from the BBC reads this thread they may have taken the point.

Danielle Jalowiecka is down to present again tonight. She and Catriona Young appear to be alternating for the next few days.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think posters on this thread would be surprised by how much is written , even if just in note form , by producers and researchers. Presenters tend to be expensive and getting them to research and write (more than rewriting ) is a very pricey way of making content. The presenters don’t need to be experts but they do need to have a good broadcasting voice , a pleasant manner on air, cope with stress , the ability to fill when things break down or are delayed, the ability to pronounce French Italian and German correctly without recourse to Google, interviewing skills , writing skills , work well in a team , not be (too much of) a prima Donna, take sometimes curt direction without getting the mump on , and talk when someone is “ranting” in their ear. That’s quite a list of skills which is why most people just can’t do it. The key skill is reading a script without sounding as if they are reading - that is surprisingly difficult. It is also a very weird feeling just talking into microphone with no visible audience other than the people inthe cubicle chatting to each other. That said I’ve known radio presenters (not in R3 ) who would happily go on air at 06.00 and stop at midnight if they could.
If they are classical music experts so much the better but some of the best presenters are not experts and indeed in the outside world some of the experts don’t have a huge interest outside their area.

[french frank]

And I think the point needs to be made (again!) - sorry kb! - most of R3's programmes don't need an in-depth knowledge of classical music because they aren't that kind of programme: they aren't aimed at a knowledgeable audience. I understood that if R3 (classical) presenters were deemed capable of writing their own script, they did so. In some cases it would be better if they didn't. I'm sure the presenter who clearly mixed up Arthur Butterworth and George Butterworth would certainly have been deemed 'capable of writing her own script'.

That said, it's not that difficult to read a script and make it sound ad lib. It's why many presenters have had acting experience.

[oddoneout]

And now they've taken her away (ho ho, he hee, ha haaa) before I had a chance to find out if, like the other presenters, she knew, for instance, that there was a Richard as well as a Giles Farnaby, that there were two Groneman brothers, both composers, that Vaughan Williams' Romance for viola and piano isn't a transcription of his Harmonica romance; in short, the sort of in-depth knowledge displayed nearly every morning by the three regular presenters. Having a degree in recorder performance no doubt involves knowledge and skill but it is, all the same , a specialised segment of the musical world.

Maybe if anyone from the BBC reads this thread they may have taken the point.

Why should the subject of her degree preclude any further, wider, knowledge? An interest in and love for music (practical music making experience an asset), willingness and ability to research as necessary and fact check (including pronunciation), presenting skills, I would consider to be essential, not least because they would cover the examples you list if those weren't the individual's area of expertise. TTN is different from the daytime programmes and I'm assuming it is a little easier as a result to ensure mistakes don't occur - fewer items, no listener input to accommodate, no requirement to be "chatty", must make a difference.

I've just seen EH's post which I'm relieved to find confirms that despite lack of industry knowledge I wasn't completely wrong in my opinions about skills needed!
My views about the value of expert knowledge (music or otherwise) have been coloured over the years by encountering individuals who knew a lot but were either unaware of or not interested in the areas outside their expertise, and could sometimes be quite unpleasant towards those who had the temerity to question.

[Bryn]

And I think the point needs to be made (again!) - sorry kb! - most of R3's programmes don't need an in-depth knowledge of classical music because they aren't that kind of programme: they aren't aimed at a knowledgeable audience. I understood that if R3 (classical) presenters were deemed capable of writing their own script, they did so. In some cases it would be better if they didn't. I'm sure the presenter who clearly mixed up Arthur Butterworth and George Butterworth would certainly have been deemed 'capable of writing her own script'.

That said, it's not that difficult to read a script and make it sound ad lib. It's why many presenters have had acting experience.

The three people of my acquaintance through mutual musical enthusiasms who also work as Radio 3 presenters have each, on different occasions, advised that it is part of their contractual remit to write their own scripts. There may, I suppose, be exceptions to that requirement but it was presented to me as an aspect of the standard contract. Some seem to rely on the likes of Wikipedia, pretty much word for word, but those I know tend to dig deeper.

[Ein Heldenleben]

And I think the point needs to be made (again!) - sorry kb! - most of R3's programmes don't need an in-depth knowledge of classical music because they aren't that kind of programme: they aren't aimed at a knowledgeable audience. I understood that if R3 (classical) presenters were deemed capable of writing their own script, they did so. In some cases it would be better if they didn't. I'm sure the presenter who clearly mixed up Arthur Butterworth and George Butterworth would certainly have been deemed 'capable of writing her own script'.

That said, it's not that difficult to read a script and make it sound ad lib. It's why many presenters have had acting experience.

Actually actors often make poor presenters. They tend to “act “ the role of someone reading a script. Ian Holm was very good at it - others absolutely terrible . It is in fact quite difficult to read a script and make it sound natural. Trust me - it was part of my job for 35 years to try and get every one from complete amateurs to seasoned professionals to do precisely that. When they can’t do it they have a habit of blaming your script!

[Ein Heldenleben]

The three people of my acquaintance through mutual musical enthusiasms who also work as Radio 3 presenters have each, on different occasions, advised that it is part of their contractual remit to write their own scripts. There may, I suppose, be exceptions to that requirement but it was presented to me as an aspect of the standard contract. Some seem to rely on the likes of Wikipedia, pretty much word for word, but those I know tend to dig deeper.

I think in radio it’s much more common for presenters to write their own scripts - that was certainly the case forty years ago. It was quite a shock going to TV and realising that presenters more or less didn’t do that. I wonder how much on Radio 3 is completely scripted and how much just has a skeleton script allowing for a bit of improv. Ian McMillan sounds as if he scripts every link. The musicians who present the Saturday afternoon sequence on R3 sound as if they are semi improvising around a core thought.

[french frank]

Actually actors often make poor presenters.

I didn't say actors but people 'with acting experience' e.g. Richard Baker, Martin Handley, Aled Jones.

It is in fact quite difficult to read a script and make it sound natural.

I was going from my own experience. I wrote out my lectures in full, but you develop techniques for making it sound natural (spontaneous afterthoughts, jokes and all!). I think perhaps some people just can't act and actors can overact. Anyway, TTN is part of the 'playlist' board where the format is a sequence of music with short 'links' rather than developed discussion which requires in-depth knowledge. That isn't to say presenters never have that knowledge and manage to slip some of it in very fruitfully (e.g.John Shea and Catriona Young). Just that it isn't essential for such a format.

DJ has the voice and must have at least an adequate knowledge of classical music for the job. I don't think a knowledge of Giles Farnaby (one of my first LPs aged 14) and Richard Farnaby (who he?) is necessary for a 'playlist' presenter.

[Bryn]

. . . I don't think a knowledge of Giles Farnaby (one of my first LPs aged 14) and Richard Farnaby (who he?) is necessary for a 'playlist' presenter.

https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Farnaby,_Richard

[hmvman]

For an example of how not to make reading a script sound natural, try Moira Stewart on CFM!

[Ein Heldenleben]

I didn't say actors but people 'with acting experience' e.g. Richard Baker, Martin Handley, Aled Jones.



I was going from my own experience. I wrote out my lectures in full, but you develop techniques for making it sound natural (spontaneous afterthoughts, jokes and all!). I think perhaps some people just can't act and actors can overact. Anyway, TTN is part of the 'playlist' board where the format is a sequence of music with short 'links' rather than developed discussion which requires in-depth knowledge. That isn't to say presenters never have that knowledge and manage to slip some of it in very fruitfully (e.g.John Shea and Catriona Young). Just that it isn't essential for such a format.

DJ has the voice and must have at least an adequate knowledge of classical music for the job. I don't think a knowledge of Giles Farnaby (one of my first LPs aged 14) and Richard Farnaby (who he?) is necessary for a 'playlist' presenter.

I’m sure you were a superb lecturer but delivering a radio script is very different. If you want to get technical it’s also different from doing a TV script. Sometimes TV presenters don’t make good radio ones particularly if they’ve had no local radio or network radio experience. In TV there’s a tendency to emphasise words more - often to cut through music and background effects . Taken to extremes it’s known as plonking. That sounds unnatural on Radio - where the delivery tends to be more modulated and even . Catriona is a very good example of this …Others include Peter Donaldson , Sue McGregor and currently Ian Skelly, Tom McKinney - to be honest there are a lot of very good radio presenters around.

[french frank]

https://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Farnaby,_Richard

Yes, thank you, Bryn. I had looked him up. My point was that knowledge of this composer should not be treated as the litmus test for an acceptable R3 presenter.