So what's wrong with Radio 3 Breakfast?

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  • Domeyhead
    • Nov 2024

    So what's wrong with Radio 3 Breakfast?

    Well in short we probably all agree the answer is quite a lot, as Sarah articulated in the response to the letter from the BBC Trust. But the problem for me is that while we may collectively share an antipathy to the style and content of the current Breakfast programme, do we all share a view of what we would wish it to be instead? If the million or so previous listeners were all (presumably) satisfied with the programme two years ago, are all of them equally dissatisfied with the programme today?
    The problem with many campaign groups is they are better at expressing what they don't like than presenting a cogent and persuasive alternative. For my part this is what I don't like about the current presentation:-
    1) The baseless jollity of presenters such as Sara Mohr Pietsch who regale us with the idea that listening to serious muisic is not a pleasure, it is "fun".
    2) The idea that listening to the programme makes me a part of a group.
    3) The idea that I should immediately express my enjoyment back to the programme (and the rest of the "group") to somehow enhance our collective "listening experience".
    4)The idea that "success" is expressed in listener figures. What is the point of a license if the BBC becomes obsessed with market share as though it is a commercial station?


    And what I don't like about the current musical policy
    1) The replacement of a selection of music on its merits with a formula - so that (eg) the first piece after 7am is almost always a fanfare.
    2) The idea that the music is more enjoyable if it is already familiar to the listener.
    3) The idea that large, stirring grandiose symphonic overtures are more enjoyable than lighter more esoteric pieces.
    4) The idea that having listeners select a musical choice somehow "democratises" the "listening experience", thus transforning listeners into "stakeholders" - presumably to fulfil some BBC edict, as though this handful of tiresome tweeters and emailers can somehow represent the million or so who do not wish to subscribe.
    5) I do not like the preponderance of overtures. And because they are familiar we get the same old pieces over and over - the same old foreplay without the follow up. Everything that Radio 3 once stood against.
    6) I don't like phone ins. Why is someone else's emotional association of a piece relevant or even interesting to me?

    So what do I want instead? Is this what others want too?

    1) I want to hear unfamiliar music. I want every Radio 3 programme to be part of my lifelong musical education.
    2) I want presenters to inform on the pieces without using false jollity (Pietsch) or false reverence( Cowan)
    3) I want humour to be dry and droll (Trelawney). I do not want to have "fun" at 7 in the morning (Pietsch)
    4) I like chamber music, whether it is from the 18th century or the 20th
    5) I like a smattering of early, sacred and profane music.
    6) I like a smattering of vocal pieces especially accompanied by a solo instrument such as a piano
    7) I like pieces written for unfashionable instruments
    8) I love short pieces written especially for a solo woodwind instrument.
    9) I like an occasional march so long as it is not the Dambusters.
    10) I like pieces that convey a sense of peace and tranquility in the morning. I am sick of being shocked out of bed by overtures to ballet music and movements from the 19th century romantic symphonies.

    Does anyone have a very different vision of "their" Breakfast programme?
  • ferneyhoughgeliebte
    Gone fishin'
    • Sep 2011
    • 30163

    #2
    Originally posted by Domeyhead View Post
    Does anyone have a very different vision of "their" Breakfast programme?
    Ah, Domey: I think you pinpoint the problems we have. Whilst I share your dislikes, I also have concerns about your "likes".

    Why assume that SM-P's "jolity" and RC's "reverence" are "false"? Nothing but "dry and droll" humour would become grating. (Indeed, "grating" might sum up many contributers to these Boards' feelings for Mr Trelawny's presentation style.) "Smattering" is too vague a term: one person's "smattering" is another's "far too much" and yet another's "not nearly enough". "Short pieces for solo woodwind instruments" might be interpreted as a request for Berg's Op5, something I would second. But, above all, I definitely do NOT want the Breakfast schedules to become "Tranquil Classics"! The very idea sounds worse than what we've already got! Get me in the mood for the day ahead, please, rather than make me want to go back to bed!
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

    Comment

    • Serial_Apologist
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 37678

      #3
      Often by getting rid of the "negatives" as outlined in Domeyhead's first two sections - however based his/her justifications, we are mostly agreed on them here - one arrives at a satisfactory result - out outcome, as is the vogue word.

      Comment

      • french frank
        Administrator/Moderator
        • Feb 2007
        • 30283

        #4
        Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
        outcome, as is the vogue word.
        Indeed it is.

        With my other hat I'm at a distance from the myriad individual views (I've just had a response from a Distinguished Person rating the current presenters. Yes but, no but, as far as 'listeners in general' are concerned. And, as RW points out that presenters are a matter of personal taste, I think I may reveal that he also has presenters that he can't stand. But not, he added promptly, on Radio 3. [No, Rog, but Foul! you handpicked all the R3 presenters yourself! ).

        What this suggests (and this is only one of the points made by Domeyhead) is that the contribution of presenters should be downgraded. Perhaps to 'announcers' . IOW, should the description 'presenter' be reserved for those with either expert knowledge which is the fundamental focus of the programme (e.g. RC/JS on CDM) or with the time to spend researching their programmes (DM and CotW)? Those who 'host' 'shows' are sufficiently controversial to suggest their role - and their programmes - should be reconsidered.

        Morning programmes are dumbing down big time, whatever the justification for doing it.
        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

        Comment

        • kernelbogey
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 5745

          #5
          Originally posted by french frank View Post
          [...] Those who 'host' 'shows' are sufficiently controversial to suggest their role - and their programmes - should be reconsidered. Morning programmes are dumbing down big time, whatever the justification for doing it.
          Fair enough. But my recollection of (for example) SMP when she first presented Breakfast is of a knowledgeable musician, able to comment interestingly on the music (and others here have confirmed that on the basis of tv work of hers that I haven't seen).

          There seems to be a strong, clandestine influence on the style of presenters from producers and/or - what to call them? - producers' line managers to dumb down with chat about the Oscars, inane themes for texting and emailing in and all the rest of the malarkey so widely detested on these boards. These folk are never credited on air (nor I assume, in RT) so that they could be challenged, or at least addressed.

          Comment

          • Serial_Apologist
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 37678

            #6
            Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
            Fair enough. But my recollection of (for example) SMP when she first presented Breakfast is of a knowledgeable musician, able to comment interestingly on the music (and others here have confirmed that on the basis of tv work of hers that I haven't seen).

            There seems to be a strong, clandestine influence on the style of presenters from producers and/or - what to call them? - producers' line managers to dumb down with chat about the Oscars, inane themes for texting and emailing in and all the rest of the malarkey so widely detested on these boards. These folk are never credited on air (nor I assume, in RT) so that they could be challenged, or at least addressed.
            I agree to this - more in answer to Ferney's point at the start of para 2 in his #2, pointing up the forced character of the dumbed down presentation of SMP and others, than French Frank's, above.

            Comment

            • ferneyhoughgeliebte
              Gone fishin'
              • Sep 2011
              • 30163

              #7
              Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
              I agree to this - more in answer to Ferney's point at the start of para 2 in his #2, pointing up the forced character of the dumbed down presentation of SMP and others, than French Frank's, above.
              Fair point: but RC's "false reverence"?

              EDIT: and I wouldn't have taken issue if SMP's "jolity" had been referred to as "forced" rather than "false".
              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

              Comment

              • french frank
                Administrator/Moderator
                • Feb 2007
                • 30283

                #8
                Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
                Fair enough. But my recollection of (for example) SMP when she first presented Breakfast is of a knowledgeable musician, able to comment interestingly on the music (and others here have confirmed that on the basis of tv work of hers that I haven't seen).
                But now presenters are expected (?) to tweet while on air, field the Your Calls, and the Wake Up calls, keep reading out the news headlines/weather, pick out the snippets of topical news. This isn't a programme for musically knowledgeable presenters. Surely it's the programme that's 'wrong' (usually), not the presenters?
                It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                Comment

                • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                  Gone fishin'
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 30163

                  #9
                  Originally posted by french frank View Post
                  Surely it's the programme that's 'wrong' (usually), not the presenters?
                  [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                  Comment

                  • Norfolk Born

                    #10
                    Originally posted by french frank View Post
                    But now presenters are expected (?) to tweet while on air, field the Your Calls, and the Wake Up calls, keep reading out the news headlines/weather, pick out the snippets of topical news. This isn't a programme for musically knowledgeable presenters. Surely it's the programme that's 'wrong' (usually), not the presenters?
                    Can you imagine James Naughtie, John Humphreys or the other 'Today' presenters agreeing to such pointless multi-tasking? I think not, which is why IMO 'Today' is much more successful as a programme than 'Breakfast' is. Put simply, the producers of the 'Today' programme have kept their proverbial eye on the proverbial ball.

                    Comment

                    • Aubade

                      #11
                      Originally posted by kernelbogey View Post
                      Fair enough. But my recollection of (for example) SMP when she first presented Breakfast is of a knowledgeable musician, able to comment interestingly on the music (and others here have confirmed that on the basis of tv work of hers that I haven't seen).
                      My recollection too. Also, she responded when I shouted at her in the bathroom. That's certainly why she stopped referring to THE Messiah and telling us what we were "gonna" hear. In return, I've tried to stop shouting when she tells me the sonata was played "by the PIANIST Alfred Brendel" (ah - so not a marimba then). I've said this before, but they ARE presenters; the culprits are the editors and producers who design and direct this presentational tosh.

                      One point missing from the original list of dislikes at the head of this thread is that of dismemberment. I readily concede that there are movements which bear solo outings but they are never middle movements, they cannot be single movements of a Beethoven symphony (apart from progs like Private Passions) and they can't be a prelude from the 48 without its fugue. Playing just a chunk from a piece of music is a very serious editorial decision: is the result a piece of legitimate radio or a bleeding limb? Right now, the attitude seems to be that anything is fair game for amputation. We are back with the editorial responsibility which underlies the whole programme rather than the presenters.

                      Comment

                      • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                        Late member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 9173

                        #12
                        we go back beyonf the programme editorial authority to Thompson and the Controller of radio and Pepsi Cola .... it is my earnest wish to outlive their reign and hope that a more receptive cadre of management and policies prevail eventually .... this may take some time ...
                        According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                        Comment

                        • Ferretfancy
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 3487

                          #13
                          The latest wheeze is to have extended phone interviews with people who hate a particular piece of music, today's example was Peter and the Wolf. I'm at a loss to understand in what way that assists listening. There is a case for programming shorter pieces before 9am, but not single movements and snippets as now. After 9 am we should be offered longer works, but of course that would make it CD Masters and that wouldn't do.

                          Comment

                          • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                            Gone fishin'
                            • Sep 2011
                            • 30163

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Ferretfancy View Post
                            The latest wheeze is to have extended phone interviews with people who hate a particular piece of music
                            Blimey! They're now nicking their ideas from these Boards!

                            Quick! Someone start a "Let's Just Shut Up and Play Some Music" Thread!
                            [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                            Comment

                            • antongould
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 8782

                              #15
                              Some might say just what we need another Breakfast thread but I applaud your intentions so my responses for what they are worth.........

                              ".. what I don't like about the current presentation:-
                              1) The baseless jollity of presenters such as Sara Mohr Pietsch who regale us with the idea that listening to serious muisic is not a pleasure, it is "fun".


                              I have no problem with SMP or her presentational style in fact I prefer her to PT, RC and the weekend lady

                              "[2) The idea that listening to the programme makes me a part of a group. "

                              I don't mind being part of a group - I love our little group hereabouts


                              "3) The idea that I should immediately express my enjoyment back to the programme (and the rest of the "group") to somehow enhance our collective "listening experience"."

                              Ambivalent

                              "4)The idea that "success" is expressed in listener figures. What is the point of a license if the BBC becomes obsessed with market share as though it is a commercial station? "

                              Hardly IMHO the fault of the BBC but of their successive political masters



                              "And what I don't like about the current musical policy
                              1) The replacement of a selection of music on its merits with a formula - so that (eg) the first piece after 7am is almost always a fanfare. "

                              As a very regular listener I haven't noticed such rigidity

                              "2) The idea that the music is more enjoyable if it is already familiar to the listener. "

                              To some new listeners will it not be?

                              "3) The idea that large, stirring grandiose symphonic overtures are more enjoyable than lighter more esoteric pieces. "

                              I enjoy both

                              "4) The idea that having listeners select a musical choice somehow "democratises" the "listening experience", thus transforning listeners into "stakeholders" - presumably to fulfil some BBC edict, as though this handful of tiresome tweeters and emailers can somehow represent the million or so who do not wish to subscribe. "

                              No real problem with requests - I'm not a tweeter or facebooker

                              "5) I do not like the preponderance of overtures. And because they are familiar we get the same old pieces over and over - the same old foreplay without the follow up. Everything that Radio 3 once stood against. "

                              I feel overtures are fine for Breakfast

                              "6) I don't like phone ins. Why is someone else's emotional association of a piece relevant or even interesting to me? "

                              It usually interests me!

                              "So what do I want instead? Is this what others want too?

                              1) I want to hear unfamiliar music. I want every Radio 3 programme to be part of my lifelong musical education.
                              2) I want presenters to inform on the pieces without using false jollity (Pietsch) or false reverence( Cowan)
                              3) I want humour to be dry and droll (Trelawney). I do not want to have "fun" at 7 in the morning (Pietsch)
                              4) I like chamber music, whether it is from the 18th century or the 20th
                              5) I like a smattering of early, sacred and profane music.
                              6) I like a smattering of vocal pieces especially accompanied by a solo instrument such as a piano
                              7) I like pieces written for unfashionable instruments
                              8) I love short pieces written especially for a solo woodwind instrument.
                              9) I like an occasional march so long as it is not the Dambusters.
                              10) I like pieces that convey a sense of peace and tranquility in the morning. I am sick of being shocked out of bed by overtures to ballet music and movements from the 19th century romantic symphonies. "

                              In general I feel the musical choice is aimed at new listeners and waking workers if you feel that R3 should have no interest in these groups then I suppose your choices are fine.

                              "Does anyone have a very different vision of "their" Breakfast "

                              I suppose then my vision is unusual and different.......
                              Last edited by antongould; 28-02-12, 19:47.

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