Essential Classics - The Continuing Debate

[oddoneout]

And I will keep saying, 'I/some people like it' is not an argument: it's a statement of individual preference. The point is whether this is really good enough for Radio 3.

Unfortunately in today's environment I don't think that aspect can be totally disregarded. Whether there are listeners comes down to personal preference about the output, be that concerts, recitals, early, romantic, talks, plays whatever. Getting the 'good' bits may mean accepting some level of 'bad' bits, and quite possibly more than one would ideally or ideologically like.

[BBMmk2]

Surely a couple of more extended works that are challenging to the lister, should be brought in?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Surely a couple of more extended works that are challenging to the lister, should be brought in?

Went the day well, Bbm?

[french frank]

Unfortunately in today's environment I don't think that aspect can be totally disregarded.

I wonder on what they base their view that they won't have an audience if they play a few more longer works during the five and a half hours in the morning?

[DracoM]

That is THE central and unanswerable puzzle in this whole debate. It has to be. But, do they have any more idea than we do?

[oddoneout]

I wonder on what they base their view that they won't have an audience if they play a few more longer works during the five and a half hours in the morning?

Quite possibly nothing that we would consider valid or useful, whichever side of this debate one is? What, if any, data do the decision makers have that could genuinely inform their decisions? Are said decisions more the result of opinion and the need to tickbox whatever the current hot topic is than a genuine insight into their audience(s)? In other words could they even begin to answer your question about longer works?

What do the other two Musketeers think? Could you cope with a shorter 'shorts' programme, leading on(ideally taking the opportunity to make at least one connection) to longer complete works?
And perhaps not confine such offerings solely to music. I have been finding some of the Time Traveler segments very interesting and would welcome slightly longer versions of the idea that puts a historical and/or social context to some musical item.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

If Radio 3 continues to be a clone of CFM minus adverts, there's very little justification for it to continue.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

If Radio 3 continues to be a clone of CFM minus adverts, there's very little justification for it to continue.

I think that this is only true of the pre-Noon broadcasts (and I can't comment on Breakfast, as I'm rarely up at that time these days) and In Tune. There isn't, as far as I know, anything on CFM to match the quality of Composer of the Week, The Early Music Show(s), Choral Evensong, Hear & Now, Record Review the Live Concerts and the afternoon relays of concerts and Operas. Even Music Matters and the flawed Listening Service are very different from what CFM has on offer. (And I've missed out the "non-Classical" programmes because they are obviously not "clones" from CFM.)

But in those programmes where there is obvious aping of CFM, then I completely agree with you - if there is already a national broadcaster that offers a patchwork of short pieces, bleeding chunks, individual Movements from larger works, and " presenter/listener interaction, "then the Beeb should be offering something different, something distinct. Otherwise, there is no justification for it.

Earlier, on another Thread, I posted a listings for 2nd January, 1979. The content of the morning schedules there is what I relished listening to at the time, and which would get me listening to the station as eagerly at that time of day again. Is there anything on those programmes that anyone here would object to listening to during those hours?

http://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/schedules/radio3/1979-01-02

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

http://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/schedules/radio3/1979-01-02

Thank you for the reminder, Ferney. It was even better than I'd remembered.

[LMcD]

Surely a couple of more extended works that are challenging to the lister, should be brought in?

This was normal practice before the most recent 'revamp'.

[peterthekeys]

the march of the bleeding chunks

As the programme started today, Suzy Klein said that she would later be playing part of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony and invited listeners to say what they would follow it with. At that point I turned off in disgust. I've just sent in a very sarcastic email saying that if it wasn't the last movement, I'd follow it with the next movement, so I look forward to getting flamed by the producer. (I've just checked the schedule, and apparently it's the finale that they're broadcasting.)

A bleeding chunk of Mozart?

[french frank]

Quite possibly nothing that we would consider valid or useful, whichever side of this debate one is? What, if any, data do the decision makers have that could genuinely inform their decisions?

My view is that they don't need 'data'. They decide/have a vision about the raison d'être of Radio 3, and work on that basis. In their own ways, that's what other stations do.

Classic FM has laid out its stall: to cater for a broad audience, and it doesn't need an informed listenership (conveniently, that works well with the necessity to have a fairly substantial audience that they can target with their adverts). The data they need are presumably the standard demographics of age, social class &c in order to target commercials, plus anything that is selling/proving generally popular at any given time).

Radio 1 serves an audience based on the 15-29 age group and plays the contemporary/new music that that group enjoys; plus a bit of 'social action' demanded of a public service broadcaster.

6 Music serves the 'grown-up' Radio 1 audience of average age c 40 with 'popular music' focusing on a wider time span and which didn't necessarily become hits.

And so on.

And that's what they each do. Radio 3 is unique in feeling (or having) the need to focus strongly on how they can attract a broader audience which is not necessarily informed, rather than the 'classical music/jazz/world and speech/arts audiences which have a primary interest in those areas. Inevitably they encroach on Classic FM's territory if they do that, and the evidence is that they DO attract Classic FM's listeners who are getting fed up with the adverts.

[DracoM]

'Now, dear little listener, did you like that piece you just heard?
'Oh yes, Miss, it was ...well...it was....it was just lovely...'
'Yes, it was, wasn't it. And there's a lot more of it if you like that.'
'Ooh, how nice! Can I hear it ? Can I hear it now?'
'No, not now. It would tire you out. So, instead........'
'Yes, yes?'
'I've got a lovely surprise for you. Would you like to know what the surprise is?'
'Ooh, yes please, Miss!'
' Right, well, what do you think is under this piece of paper?'
'I don't know, Miss'
'Well, why don't you have a guess?'
'But suppose I get it wrong, you'll laugh'.
'No, I won't - at least you wan't hear me laugh'.
'I'm not very good at guessing. And I don't know enough to have a really GOOD guess.'
'I'll give you ten minutes to see if you can have a guess. Just think what we heard just now that you liked, and tell me....'
'........tell you what would be a good thing to have after it?'
'Yes. well done, now you understand the challenge...'
'Ooh, is it a challenge! That's really exciting. Gosh, a real challenge! I feel all grown up...'
'Yes, it is good to feel grown up, isn't it? So while you're thinking really hard to make a guess, shall I tell you who I've got as a surprise for you?
'Another surprise? Gosh, and gosh....that's so good....is it another challenge...?'
'Not really. It's more a way of helping you to relax after all that challenge and tiring you out with the guessing.'
'That's very nice of you'.
'Yes, it is isn't it? so, now........who do you think is just coming into the room..?
'Is it.......Mozart?'
'No, don't be a silly billy, it's not Mozart....that'd really tire you all out all over again.....have another guess.'
'Well, could it be.......gosh, I can't make two guesses in such a short time....erm....erm....Is it Andy Pandy?'
'No, it's not Andy Pandy, but you're getting warmer......have another guess....?'
'It's not......Eeyore, is it? I love Eeyore.....
'No, it's not Eeyore - you're thinking of Uncle Ian or Aunty Susie, aren't you?
'Oh, yes, I am...how did you know that...anyway, who is it? I can't keep still for the excitement...'
'Alright, as you've been so good, I'll tell you........are you ready?
'Yes, yes!'
'It's the Time Traveller! There, I knew you'd be excited. So as a treat, I thought I'd get the Time Traveller in before I get you to make your guess for whatever should follow Gotterdammerung...remember, that was the challenge? You had to guess.........'
'.......what would be good to come after that....yes, I remember......'
'And what's your guess? Come on, don't be shy, it's your turn to take us forward....and after that, we'll get in a real Time Traveller, so.....come on, we're waiting..........
Well, it's.....it's.....
'Yes?'
'Ooh, I don't like to say it....'
'No, go on...we're all waiting, aren't we?'
[Noise as of a yawn]
'Well..........'
'Yes?'
'John Cage?'

[french frank]

If Radio 3 continues to be a clone of CFM minus adverts, there's very little justification for it to continue.

I think that this is only true of the pre-Noon broadcasts (and I can't comment on Breakfast, as I'm rarely up at that time these days) and In Tune.

Unfortunately the pre-noon broadcasts are on every day (except Saturdays in the case of Ess. Cla.), and usually take up 5½ hours non-stop during the period which is far and away the most favoured time for listening to the radio. Most of the programmes you mention are dotted about, on once a week, often late at night and certainly at times when many listeners (even Radio 3 ones) desert radio for the television.

No wonder the Radio 3 audience only listens to the station for about 6 hours per week: some have very little to tune into, others have a great deal, but just drop in for a listen in between doing other things.

[Sir Velo]

I wonder on what they base their view that they won't have an audience if they play a few more longer works during the five and a half hours in the morning?

I seem to recallCD Masters turned in comparable listening figures, but correct me if I'm wrong.

If the listeners who can't concentrate on a 30 minute work leave the station so be it; they'll find they're already catered for on Classic FM. My own view is that many of those who feel intimidated by longer works will be pleasantly surprised by how a complete symphony is actually more rewarding than a diet of bleeding chunks, and that listener numbers could rise significantly. Worth a trial anyway I would have thought.